The Hobbit movies -- a revised viewpoint

[ZehnWaters]

You mean included a female character as a token love interest? Rather misogynistic, don't you think, to reduce her to one corner of a love triangle?

Whatever you think of Tolkien's female characters in canon, they were never "token" anything.

To be fair, she was also added simply for being a female in a story that had almost none. So a bit token in that regards too. I still like her.

 

[Ealdwyn]

To be fair, she was also added simply for being a female in a story that had almost none. So a bit token in that regards too. I still like her.

Exactly. They had an opportunity to create an original female character and that's the best they could do? Laughable

 

[ZehnWaters]

Exactly. They had an opportunity to create an original female character and that's the best they could do? Laughable

Still, she's one of the better written tokens. At least she had a personality and motivations so she's doing better than Rey Palpatine.

 

[finarvyn]

I'm not sure it was "laughable." We're looking at a character who was some sort of Captain, one who was tasked to lead the defenses in Greenwood (MIrkwood) and keep the orcs and spiders at bay. A character who was clearly a distinguished fighter and proved to have a talent in healing. So a dwarf fell in love with her, is that so bad? A couple hobbits were smitten with Galadriel and I don't recall a lot of negative comments about her. I thought Tauriel was a fine character overall.

 

[Annatar]

So a dwarf fell in love with her, is that so bad?

I guess real dwarves are only into women with a sexy facial beard.

 

[BountyHunter]

I never had a problem with the Hobbit films, except for the differing version of Bilbo getting the ring from the prologue in Fellowship.

 

[Sons of the Woodland King]

Chiming in the discussion about Tauriel to say that I personally liked her character and Evangeline's portrayal of it. I think she made a fine and fun role model for little girls to look up to that they would not have otherwise if she had not been created and thrown into the mix. Galadriel and Arwen are terrific, but a bit unrelatable to kids who need cool action sequences--probably why they let Arwen steal Glorfindel's role. (Little girls loooove ponies!)

Much of kids' entertainment now is either trashy or way too mature for their age group. I say this as a mom of toddlers who is terrified of what media will be like by the time my babies are teens. If a non-canon side character or two has to be made to get kids interested and invested in Tolkien's work, I can get on board with that. One day those kids (not unlike myself) will grow up to become adult fans who will develop their knowledge and appreciation of the books and their canon.

All that personal soapbox stuff being said, I did NOT care for the romance between Tauriel and Kili; I found it cheap and unnecessary and it drew attention away from the wonderful relationship between Thorin and his nephews. Tauriel did not need a love story, or they could just have been friends. Kids don't need romance in their movies and grown women can survive without it. All the male eye candy is enough. (Kidding, but not really.)

I liked and enjoyed PJ's trilogy immensely! However, I am relatively easy to please (I am the opposite of a movie critic) and totally understand how it could infuriate those who hate deviations from canon. They deviated generously. Haha.

 

[finarvyn]

I never had a problem with the Hobbit films, except for the differing version of Bilbo getting the ring from the prologue in Fellowship.

Although Tolkien himself wrote two versions of this as well. ;-)

Riddles in the Dark - the Lost Version

 

[ZehnWaters]

Chiming in the discussion about Tauriel to say that I personally liked her character and Evangeline's portrayal of it. I think she made a fine and fun role model for little girls to look up to that they would not have otherwise if she had not been created and thrown into the mix.

I agree. She was more action oriented which worked for her character. Female elves CAN fight, they just usually don't. We know Aredhel hunted and Galadriel was an athlete in her youth (like many young women, at least in the USA)

Galadriel and Arwen are terrific, but a bit unrelatable to kids who need cool action sequences--probably why they let Arwen steal Glorfindel's role. (Little girls loooove ponies!)

lol true.

Much of kids' entertainment now is either trashy or way too mature for their age group. I say this as a mom of toddlers who is terrified of what media will be like by the time my babies are teens.

I agree. I've nieces and nephews.

If a non-canon side character or two has to be made to get kids interested and invested in Tolkien's work, I can get on board with that. One day those kids (not unlike myself) will grow up to become adult fans who will develop their knowledge and appreciation of the books and their canon.

It was the one complaint I DIDN'T have about discount-Legolas (Arondir).

All that personal soapbox stuff being said, I did NOT care for the romance between Tauriel and Kili; I found it cheap and unnecessary and it drew attention away from the wonderful relationship between Thorin and his nephews. Tauriel did not need a love story, or they could just have been friends. Kids don't need romance in their movies and grown women can survive without it.

Fair. I liked it but I'm a sucker for cheap romance and the two actors were so cute. I wouldn't have made a love-triangle, though.

All the male eye candy is enough. (Kidding, but not really.)

lol Only Bilbo, Thorin, Kili, & Fili.

 

[Child of Varda]

As a note about Tauriel, I found her bearable, in spite of not being in the book, just because she was a somewhat interesting character and also the whole love story felt like a low-key homage to Beren and Lúthien. This is not to say it couldn't have been executed better or that she needed to be in it at all (I don't think she did), but that is not my least favorite part of the movie because it didn't really interrupt the stories of Bilbo Baggins and Thorin Oakenshield very much.

As for female fighters… well, Tolkien has a few, but not many. I know this might be slightly controversial, but considering the whole "Nerwen" stuff in Unfinished Tales, I think they could have had Galadriel fight in the White Council scenes if Elrond did. That said, it might have felt jarring, since I personally found Peter Jackson's Galadriel a bit too creepy and ethereal (what I mean is that Tolkien based Galadriel partly on Catholic thought concerning Mary, who should probably be powerful but still approachable, and anyway, she seemed to show more emotion in the book).

My favorite of the movies was the first because it seemed to stick best to the book. I do think Bilbo's arc could have been captured better. Also, I feel like Bombur was mistreated and Dóri to a lesser extent, not to mention Thranduil and Dáin. I did enjoy Thorin, however.

Also, the colorful hoods were missing.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

The name Nerwen is seemingly related to her height not fighting:
"Her mother-name was Nerwen ‘man-maiden’, and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth."
PoMe, Shibboleth of Feanor

Elf-women, while they would fight in defence, did not go to war:
"And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals."
MR, Laws and Customs of the Eldar

The Elves considered the warrior-woman custom of the Haladin to be strange.
He writes of the Folk of Haleth:
"They did not willingly adopt new things or customs, and retained many practices that seemed strange to the Eldar and the other Atani, with whom they had few dealings except in war. [..].One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; for their chieftainess Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women."
UT, The Druedain (also PoMe, Dwarves and Men)

 

[Child of Varda]

@Tar-Elenion, I think there's already another thread to discuss that issue.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

@Tar-Elenion, I think there's already another thread to discuss that issue.

I think you raised the issue in your post when you mentioned Galadriel, Nerwen, and fighting.
Which I addressed here, where you raised the issue...

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

@Tar-Elenion, I think there's already another thread to discuss that issue.

Several. Here's one:

Post in thread 'Who is the strongest and mighty elf? (as success)' https://thetolkien.forum/threads/who-is-the-strongest-and-mighty-elf-as-success.29635/post-542683

 

[Child of Varda]

I think you raised the issue in your post when you mentioned Galadriel, Nerwen, and fighting.
Which I addressed here, where you raised the issue...

Sorry—that was probably unclear. My point was that it has been a talking point elsewhere by people who probably know more about lore than I do. The link above by @Squint-eyed Southerner is one. @TheManInTheMoon, in my opinion, made a pretty decent case. I'd be interested in hearing your take if you want (I don't know if you've seen this yet). It is also spoken of in the "Galadriel in the Amazon series" thread. I am not a fan of Galadriel's Amazon portrayal, but a lot of the conversation was from before the show came out and a lot of it was just about her being a warrior in the lore.

I will say it is known that Galadriel fought from The Unfinished Tales in the First Kinslaying at very least, so we know she is capable of fighting in need. We also know she took part in the expulsion of Sauron from Dol Guldur, so I see no reason she couldn't have fought there. The "Nerwen stuff" was meant as shorthand in the entire section on her. I apologize if that was confusing.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Sorry—that was probably unclear. My point was that it has been a talking point elsewhere by people who probably know more about lore than I do. The link above by @Squint-eyed Southerner is one. @TheManInTheMoon, in my opinion, made a pretty decent case.

A pretty decent case for what?

I'd be interested in hearing your take if you want (I don't know if you've seen this yet).

The post you link to contains partially quoted passages which I gave a fuller quote for in my reply to you.
Case in point:
"Note that she wasn't the only female fighter at Alqualondë. Since we are told: "indeed in dire straits or desperate defence the Nissi \[the Elf-women\] fought valiantly" - Laws and Customs"

I quoted that above, but my quote was fuller.
Note the preceding part of the passage is left out:
"And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war..."

Similarly it is noted in the post you linked to that:
"The only women in Tolkien who are described as 'amazon' are Haleth (the warrior Queen/Chieftain of Haladin), the early versions of Eowyn in History of Lord of the Rings (she openly goes to war in those versions as opposed to the final version where she wasn't Amazon), Makar's sister the Valie/Goddess of War (from the Book of Lost Tales) and Galadriel."

I provided the quote referenced here above as well, the Eldar considered the amazon practice or custom that the folk of Haleth had to be strange:
"[They] retained many practices that seemed strange to the Eldar..."
"One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; for their chieftainess Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women."

I don't find any particular relevance to "Makar's sister", who was an abandoned character long before Galadriel was even invented.

Or:
""\[Galadriel\] was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats” - Tolkien Letter 348"

The "then" refers to her youth in Valinor:
"It is a secondary name given to her in her youth in the far past because she had long hair which glistened like gold but was also shot with silver. She was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats."

Where there were no wars, but there were athletic events that Galadriel took part in, I provided the quote above:
"Her mother-name was Nerwen ‘man-maiden’, and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth."

From Oxford Learners Dictionary:
"1 (in ancient Greek stories) a woman from a group of female warriors (= soldiers)
2 amazon (literary) a tall strong woman
3 Amazon™ a company set up in 1994 to sell books through the internet..."

Amazon noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Definition of Amazon noun in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.

www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com

#2 fits Tolkien's description.

It is also spoken of in the "Galadriel in the Amazon series" thread. I am not a fan of Galadriel's Amazon portrayal, but a lot of the conversation was from before the show came out and a lot of it was just about her being a warrior in the lore.

I am aware. I have participated in those discussions, and the 'Galadriel was a warrior in the lore' side (even noted Tolkien Professors') tends to selectively quote passages. Or find selectively quoted passages that others have provided and not know the context.

I will say it is known that Galadriel fought from The Unfinished Tales in the First Kinslaying at very least, so we know she is capable of fighting in need.

As Tolkien says, elf-women will fight dire straits and in desperate defence. But they abstain from war. Virtually all circumstances in which people use selectevely cited passage to claim Galadriel fought (in physical combat) even if accurate, involve what might be termed desperate defence.

We also know she took part in the expulsion of Sauron from Dol Guldur, so I see no reason she couldn't have fought there. The "Nerwen stuff" was meant as shorthand in the entire section on her. I apologize if that was confusing.

Can you provide whatever quote it is you are thinking of, for Galadriel taking part in the expulsion of Sauron from Dol Guldur?

 

[Child of Varda]

😆 In typical TTF fashion, this really went down several sidetracks. I was just going to say in relation to the thread title that I have not revised my initial viewpoint that the three Hobbit movies are rubbish. Watched each one once and have no inclination to suffer watching them again.

Ok, back to an elder TTF'r overbearing upon a younger TTF'r.

What is a "TTF"?
To be honest, I don't entirely disagree with you, but I would argue most of the same problems exist in Jackson's The Lord of the Rings to a lesser extent.

The post you link to contains partially quoted passages which I gave a fuller quote for in my reply to you.
Case in point:
"Note that she wasn't the only female fighter at Alqualondë. Since we are told: "indeed in dire straits or desperate defence the Nissi \[the Elf-women\] fought valiantly" - Laws and Customs"

I quoted that above, but my quote was fuller.
Note the preceding part of the passage is left out:
"And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war..."

Similarly it is noted in the post you linked to that:
"The only women in Tolkien who are described as 'amazon' are Haleth (the warrior Queen/Chieftain of Haladin), the early versions of Eowyn in History of Lord of the Rings (she openly goes to war in those versions as opposed to the final version where she wasn't Amazon), Makar's sister the Valie/Goddess of War (from the Book of Lost Tales) and Galadriel."

I provided the quote referenced here above as well, the Eldar considered the amazon practice or custom that the folk of Haleth had to be strange:
"[They] retained many practices that seemed strange to the Eldar..."
"One of the strange practices spoken of was that many of their warriors were women, though few of these went abroad to fight in the great battles. This custom was evidently ancient; for their chieftainess Haleth was a renowned Amazon with a picked bodyguard of women."

I don't find any particular relevance to "Makar's sister", who was an abandoned character long before Galadriel was even invented.

Or:
""\[Galadriel\] was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats” - Tolkien Letter 348"

The "then" refers to her youth in Valinor:
"It is a secondary name given to her in her youth in the far past because she had long hair which glistened like gold but was also shot with silver. She was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats."

Where there were no wars, but there were athletic events that Galadriel took part in, I provided the quote above:
"Her mother-name was Nerwen ‘man-maiden’, and she grew to be tall beyond the measure even of the women of the Noldor; she was strong of body, mind, and will, a match for both the loremasters and the athletes of the Eldar in the days of their youth."

From Oxford Learners Dictionary:
"1 (in ancient Greek stories) a woman from a group of female warriors (= soldiers)
2 amazon (literary) a tall strong woman
3 Amazon™ a company set up in 1994 to sell books through the internet..."

Amazon noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes | Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary at OxfordLearnersDictionaries.com

Definition of Amazon noun in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary. Meaning, pronunciation, picture, example sentences, grammar, usage notes, synonyms and more.

www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com

Thanks—you raise very interesting points. Once again, I find perhaps my exact opinions on the matter may not have been expressed precisely, so maybe I should clarify: I doubt Galadriel was ever a soldier per se. In other words, I doubt she was deliberately chosen to march off in other people's armies, although we know she fought in at least one battle. By saying I see Galadriel as something of a "fighter" or "warrior", personally I see her as being someone who was a skilled swords-woman (as Éowyn was) who probably got herself involved in a few battles by her own choice (obviously, the First Kinslaying is the only one we know, although, considering the gaps in her unfinished lore, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more).
That said, we know from this quote in the Silmarillion that she was not necessarily ordinary among the women of the Eldar:
"[…] but Galadriel, the only woman of the Noldor to stand that day tall and valiant among the contending princes, was eager to be gone. No oaths she swore, but the words of Feanor concerning Middle-earth had kindled in her heart, for she yearned to see the wide unguarded lands and to rule there a realm at her own will." (Of the Flight of the Noldor, The Silmarillion).
So, even though the idea that "many of their warriors were women" was strange to the Eldar, I don't think that necessarily rules out one or two rare exceptions, and it is known that "Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Fëanor maybe" (The History of Galadriel, The Unfinished Tales)
Also, about your quote about the Nissi abstaining from hunting or war, we know for a fact that there are exceptions to that rule because Aredhel, Galadriel's cousin, is said to have "when she was grown to full stature and beauty she was tall and strong, and loved much to ride and hunt in the forests." (Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie, The Silmarillion). As a side note, Aredhel and Galadriel strike me as similar in temperament.

Also, I agree that all Nissi fought in especially dire straits (which would possibly still suggest Galadriel might be in several other battles, depending on which version of the story you follow). However, Galadriel was defending her mother's kin, but not exactly her home. Also, she was getting involved as a leader among the Noldor in their rebellion and joined alongside the others, so I still don't think that argument is without weight.

I do see your point about "Amazon" meaning athlete sometimes. The reason I didn't take it that way is because Tolkien capitalized the word, and, considering that he was one for mythology, that further enforced my interpretation of it, since the Amazons are a tribe of female warriors in Greek mythology. Also, we know that she did fight "in her youth". The quote comes from a letter Tolkien wrote, so I don't know if he would have specified. I grant, however, that is probably one of the weaker argument for anything definitive.

I am aware. I have participated in those discussions, and the 'Galadriel was a warrior in the lore' side (even noted Tolkien Professors') tends to selectively quote passages. Or find selectively quoted passages that others have provided and not know the context.

I have noticed the same of people who argue from the 'Galadriel being a warrior is completely contrary to everything Professor Tolkien said' side, if they haven't clearly just not read anything besides The Lord of the Rings (or just watched the movies), so I think we're even here. That said, I think it's fair to say that pretty much any account of the history of Galadriel and Celeborn is an interpretation, so they can't always be blamed. I don't pretend to know everything there is to know about Tolkien's lore, but I see no harm in discussing them.
I didn't link them because I hadn't seen them before, but there are other threads also discussing this issue as @Squint-eyed Southerner pointed out.

Can you provide whatever quote it is you are thinking of, for Galadriel taking part in the expulsion of Sauron from Dol Guldur?

This is taken from the Tale of Years in Appendix B:
"The White Council meets; Saruman agrees to an attack on Dol Guldur, since he now wishes to prevent Sauron from searching the River. Sauron having made his plans abandons Dol Guldur."
And again in Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age:
"They [The White Council] assailed Dol Guldur, and drove Sauron from his hold, and Mirkwood for a brief while was made wholesome again."
I know Galadriel isn't explicitly named, but she was a member and the founder of the White Council if my memory serves me correctly, so I don't see why she wouldn't be there.

That's how I see it anyway. Again, I'm a human being and therefore fallible, but that's my honest impression from the text. That said, I think we are rather diverging from the topic of Jackson's The Hobbit.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

What is a "TTF"?

The Tolkien Forum. 🙂

Oh -- and Happy Birthday, BTW! 😉

Post in thread '🎉🎉🎉 2023 Birthday Thread 🎉🎉🎉' https://thetolkien.forum/threads/2023-birthday-thread.30958/post-573183

 

[Child of Varda]

The Tolkien Forum. 🙂

Oh -- and Happy Birthday, BTW! 😉

Post in thread '🎉🎉🎉 2023 Birthday Thread 🎉🎉🎉' https://thetolkien.forum/threads/2023-birthday-thread.30958/post-573183

It's not… currently my birthday.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

That wasn't posted today. 😄