Denethor seems more a tragic character than a villain

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

Denethor actually seemed to be a decent ruler (under his leadership, until that point where he lost his mind and it seemed that the capital was about to fall, they'd held off Mordor and kept them from getting into the West (minus the fortress in Dol Guldor) and the Nine Nazgul that snuck through. However, he'd recently learned that his eldest son Boromir had been killed. And now it seemed that his son Farmair was going to die too. And it seemed that Sauron's forces were going to take the city and torture him when they got him. And even if they didn't somehow, he'd seen in the Palantir that the army now attacking was only a fraction of Sauron's forces and that Sauron had an even greater army out there still. So he didn't see any way that, by military might, they could hold off the fall of the West.

Also, he's no wimp either. A lesser man would have been ensnared by Sauron after messing with that Palantir. Even Aragorn had to put up a fight to keep from being dominated. And Pippin was very lucky that Sauron didn't bother to make him tell him anything.

 

[d4rk3lf]

Yup!
That's exactly how I see him from the start.
Very tragic person... and indeed.. very strong...

To tell you the truth... if Boromir brought the Ring to Minas Tirith.. and have a fight (of wills) with his father about who will keep it... I wouldn't place my money on Boromir.

 

[Ealdwyn]

Denethor actually seemed to be a decent ruler (under his leadership, until that point where he lost his mind and it seemed that the capital was about to fall, they'd held off Mordor and kept them from getting into the West (minus the fortress in Dol Guldor) and the Nine Nazgul that snuck through. However, he'd recently learned that his eldest son Boromir had been killed. And now it seemed that his son Farmair was going to die too. And it seemed that Sauron's forces were going to take the city and torture him when they got him. And even if they didn't somehow, he'd seen in the Palantir that the army now attacking was only a fraction of Sauron's forces and that Sauron had an even greater army out there still. So he didn't see any way that, by military might, they could hold off the fall of the West.

Also, he's no wimp either. A lesser man would have been ensnared by Sauron after messing with that Palantir. Even Aragorn had to put up a fight to keep from being dominated. And Pippin was very lucky that Sauron didn't bother to make him tell him anything.

Yes! This!

Part of why I feel so attached to Denethor is because the narrative doesn’t favour him and yet his actions are perfectly reasonable and understandable.
Anything unforgivable you think Denethor II did, either did not happen in the books (eat tomatoes weirdly, tell Faramir he wished he was dead, be incompetent, cared only about his lineage, didn’t love Faramir) OR was misconstrued or misnterpreted, and is more complex and understandable than most give credit for.

The act of Denethor burning himself and Faramir has never been about killing, but about love and dignity. He tries to take Faramir with him on the pyre not because he is ‘mad’, but because he is trying to save Faramir and himself from being defiled after death. He tried to kill himself and his son because he believed Faramir would soon be dead anyway, and if he was not soon dead then he would soon be a captive of Mordor. He wants to protect them both from torture and body mutilation - since he’s been mind wrestling Sauron for 34 years with the Palantir he’s pretty much an expert on the things that Sauron would do to the rulers of Gondor.

Funny thing is, when Aragorn chooses the moment of his death, despite Arwen asking him to give her a little more time, it's all fine and dandy, but when Denethor does the same thing - under enormous pressure, with no hope, no legacy and after a lifetime of service which stripped everything he loved from him - it's suddenly called insane. As far as Denethor is concerned he is sparing his son pain in the best case and torture and desecration in the worst. That Faramir lives is a one in a million chance, on the basis of Aragorn's healing hands being in the right place in the right moment.

#teamdenethor

 

[Eljorahir]

his [Denethor's} actions are perfectly reasonable and understandable.

The act of Denethor burning himself and Faramir has never been about killing, but about love and dignity. He tries to take Faramir with him on the pyre not because he is ‘mad’, but because he is trying to save Faramir and himself from being defiled after death.

______________________
From The Chapter, "The Pyre of Denethor":
Denethor's reasoning:
'He will not wake again,' said Denethor. 'Battle is vain. Why should we wish to live longer? Why should we not go to death side by side?'

Gandalf's rebuke of Denethor:
'Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,' answered Gandalf. 'And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.'
_______________________
I see some of your reasoning, but your characterization of Denethor's actions as perfectly reasonable acts of love and dignity are just a bit too generous (in my opinion). I think Gandalf's rebuke above seems right.

I can only imagine how the events of that day would have been different if Denethor had not been corrupted (into acts of evil) by Sauron via the palantir. He would have taken the 'reasonable and understandable' course: Denethor would have sent Faramir directly to the healers and valiantly led the defense of the city. Gandalf would not have been distracted and might have gone forth in pursuit of the Witch-king preventing Theoden's death. It would have been a weaker story for us (the readers of the tale) but much better outcomes for the characters within the story.

 

[Starbrow]

I think Denethor's descent into despair is understandable. That does not justify him giving up and deserting his responsibilities. Aragorn choosing not to cling to his life at the end is different. He had not given up hope.

 

[Gloranthan]

I think the movie is almost the entire reason people think he's a jerkwad. Jackson strongly mischaracterized him, and made him look petty. He was not petty. He was a brave, devoted man who cared deeply for his family and was driven insane by the Dark Lord. I can hardly blame him for that. And the greatest victim of his fall was himself.
What Denethor did was not right, but the man simply had more grief than anyone should be expected to bear. People have a breaking point, and he went through a lot before he got to it. He is more to be pitied than blamed, although he is not guiltless.

 

[Ealdwyn]

Gandalf's rebuke of Denethor:
'Authority is not given to you, Steward of Gondor, to order the hour of your death,' answered Gandalf. 'And only the heathen kings, under the domination of the Dark Power, did thus, slaying themselves in pride and despair, murdering their kin to ease their own death.'

He is 'burned with the house’ but he does it BEFORE HE HAS LEAVE TO DO SO! Gandalf’s view is that you still have a duty that was given to you by the Kings, and you will be going against their law if you do this - THAT is the major issue Gandalf has! Denethor’s life is not his own, it BELONGS to Aragorn! But Denethor DEFIES that, he has had enough of that!

Aragorn choosing not to cling to his life at the end is different.

When Arwen is sitting beside a completely healthy Aragorn and BEGS him to stay just a little longer but Aragorn’s like NO it’s not in my aesthetic to be OLD and DISABLED I have to die now, goodbye, that’s somehow better?? As if he doesn’t have a duty of care to his wife, his son, his daughters, his people???
The hypocrisy!

I can only imagine how the events of that day would have been different if Denethor had not been corrupted (into acts of evil) by Sauron via the palantir.

What "acts of evil"?? He was not corrupted by Sauron. There's not one act that was motivated by evil.

I see only a desperate man - but a great man, a noble ruler, who had ruled Gondor, wielded the palantir, and held Sauron and the forces of Mordor at bay for DECADES. A strong man, finally broken by the death of both his sons, who was grieving for his sons, his city, his people. His last desperate act, at the very end of hope, was trying to prevent the torture of himself and Faramir, and the desecration of their bodies. He was motivated by love for his son and defiance of Sauron in his final act, not evil.

Peter Jackson has such a lot to answer for

 

[Olorgando]

When Arwen is sitting beside a completely healthy Aragorn and BEGS him to stay just a little longer but Aragorn’s like NO it’s not in my aesthetic to be OLD and DISABLED I have to die now, goodbye, that’s somehow better?? As if he doesn’t have a duty of care to his wife, his son, his daughters, his people???
The hypocrisy!

Utter disagreement!
Can we with our life-spans of perhaps 70-80 years (many less, very few more) even remotely imagine someone at age 88 (but looking perhaps in his late 30's or just a bit older) being crowned king, and then ruling for 122 years?? I'd guess even JRRT could not really have. Very likely no infant in Minas Tirith at the time of his coronation was alive when he gave up his life. Aragorn and Arwen's son Eldarion could easily have been around 100 years himself at his father's passing - how much care did he still need from his father??? He would most likely have been quite a bit older than Aragorn himself upon ascending to the throne.
Arwen was 2,690 year old when Aragorn was born. Yes, she may not have entirely realized what giving up her Elven immortality for the love of Aragorn meant ...
But JRRT made a point about Aragorn, like the early kings on Númenor (Elros, 500, many of the following around 400 or plus), gave up his lives voluntarily, as an act of faith (something very important to JRRT in his real life). And not waiting for decrepitude to wrench it from him, as was the case with Tar-Atanamir (SA 1800-2221), who reached the second-greatest age after Elros, but may have "overstayed his welcome" by as much as 50 years, if I remember some comment (footnote? endnote?) from FoN correctly.
We very likely cannot understand people of our own culture perhaps 200 years ago (and probably much less), let alone centuries earlier. No, Aragorn and Arwen and the rest are not Joe and Jane from next door in Forest Hills, or Peoria, or whatever counts as "normal" in the US (the same can be said for every western country), and PJ's pathetic attempts to make them seem so are his worst offences (he was even mystified by rural Edwardian English, which is what the Hobbits basically are). Amazoff's bowdlerization, from what I've gleaned from skimming the relevant threads, is even worse.

 

[Aldarion]

When Arwen is sitting beside a completely healthy Aragorn and BEGS him to stay just a little longer but Aragorn’s like NO it’s not in my aesthetic to be OLD and DISABLED I have to die now, goodbye, that’s somehow better?? As if he doesn’t have a duty of care to his wife, his son, his daughters, his people???
The hypocrisy!

It is not.

Life is a gift given by God, and Aragorn is chosing to return that gift after he has fulfilled his earthly mission. And he chose to do it voluntarily rather than waiting for his soul to be forced out of his body.

Denethor, on the other hand, was also still healthy, but he still had a duty to Gondor until the King returned - especially since his only surviving son was in no shape to take over for him. And he did not apparently have the privilege that the Numenorans of old did, to return their life willingly. He had to raise a hand on himself to do so, which - given that humans are God's children - is essentially a sacrilege.

What "acts of evil"?? He was not corrupted by Sauron. There's not one act that was motivated by evil.

I see only a desperate man - but a great man, a noble ruler, who had ruled Gondor, wielded the palantir, and held Sauron and the forces of Mordor at bay for DECADES. A strong man, finally broken by the death of both his sons, who was grieving for his sons, his city, his people. His last desperate act, at the very end of hope, was trying to prevent the torture of himself and Faramir, and the desecration of their bodies. He was motivated by love for his son and defiance of Sauron in his final act, not evil.

He was pushed into despair by Sauron. That is Denethor's corruption. And that despair led him to kill himself, to try and kill Faramir, and to abandon his duty to Minas Tirith and Gondor as a whole. And make no mistake, these acts were evil. Act needs not be motivated by evil to be evil - indeed, many of the greatest evils in history had been motivated by good, by blind idealism.

 

[Gloranthan]

He was pushed into despair by Sauron. That is Denethor's corruption. And that despair led him to kill himself, to try and kill Faramir, and to abandon his duty to Minas Tirith and Gondor as a whole. And make no mistake, these acts were evil. Act needs not be motivated by evil to be evil - indeed, many of the greatest evils in history had been motivated by good, by blind idealism

And we can hold Denethor accountable for the actions he took, while at the same time recognizing that Sauron deliberately provoked him to despair, not in self-defense, but in order to help him accomplish his own, villainous tasks. Guilt is not transferrable, but it can be shared - Stalin may be the worst, for creating a climate of fear that would drive people to steal from other victims, but that's not an excuse. Denethor's evil, especially because it consumed him, can be forgiven more easily by us, because it was someone else who deliberately provoked him to it; Sauron, however, can go to Hell, and the sooner, the better. Sauron also had much greater initial talents and knowledge of what he was doing, so is more accountable for his actions in general.

 

[Aldarion]

And we can hold Denethor accountable for the actions he took, while at the same time recognizing that Sauron deliberately provoked him to despair, not in self-defense, but in order to help him accomplish his own, villainous tasks. Guilt is not transferrable, but it can be shared - Stalin may be the worst, for creating a climate of fear that would drive people to steal from other victims, but that's not an excuse. Denethor's evil, especially because it consumed him, can be forgiven more easily by us, because it was someone else who deliberately provoked him to it; Sauron, however, can go to Hell, and the sooner, the better. Sauron also had much greater initial talents and knowledge of what he was doing, so is more accountable for his actions in general.

That is why I make distinction: Denethor to me is definitely not a villain. He is not "more a tragic character than a villain", he simply is a tragic character, because while he definitely has responsibility for actions he took, there was no malice in them. Denethor cannot avoid responsibility for his actions - after all, it was his own pride which led him to gaze into Palantir and challenge Sauron, which is what led to all the later evils - and so he is certainly guilty of causing evil; but because none of his evil was born of malice, it can be forgiven more easily than Saruman's.

 

[Gloranthan]

it was his own pride which led him to gaze into Palantir and challenge Sauron,

Yeah, the arrogance of that is virtually insane. Why would you try to mind battle the Dark Lord? The guy who has a magical fortress the size of a mountain and is a dark angel, you think you're gonna win a psychic dual with that guy? He should have known better, and he did, nothing but pride could have driven such a foolish action (whereas the Hobbit who contacted Sauron via the Palintir did so mostly out of ignorance and curiosity, and consequentially Gandalf figured he'd suffered enough for it and just scolded him).

 

[Aldarion]

Yeah, the arrogance of that is virtually insane. Why would you try to mind battle the Dark Lord? The guy who has a magical fortress the size of a mountain and is a dark angel, you think you're gonna win a psychic dual with that guy? He should have known better, and he did, nothing but pride could have driven such a foolish action (whereas the Hobbit who contacted Sauron via the Palintir did so mostly out of ignorance and curiosity, and consequentially Gandalf figured he'd suffered enough for it and just scolded him).

I'd say it is a combination of pride and desperation. His pride blinded him so he only saw a conflict between Gondor and Mordor; which then pushed him to desperation. But pride again prevented him from seeking help, and instead he trusted only in himself and so turned to Palantir.

 

[Gloranthan]

I'd say it is a combination of pride and desperation. His pride blinded him so he only saw a conflict between Gondor and Mordor; which then pushed him to desperation. But pride again prevented him from seeking help, and instead he trusted only in himself and so turned to Palantir.

Yeah, even if he was going to attempt such a crazy action he should have been, like "Hey, Numenorean ubermensch and angel wizard, can y'all help me with this?"

 

[Tar-Elenion]

"The Elves call 'death' the Gift of God (to Men)."
Letter 208
"In this mythical 'prehistory' immortality, strictly longevity co-extensive with the life of Arda, was pan of the given nature of the Elves; beyond the End nothing was revealed. Mortality, that is a short life-span having no relation to the life of Arda, is spoken of as the given nature of Men: the Elves called it the Gift of Ilúvatar (God)."
Letter 212
"If Aragorn had yielded to Arwen’s entreaties, he would have become decrepit, at least in body, very soon."
NoMe, Time-scales and “rates of growth”

 

[Gloranthan]

"The Elves call 'death' the Gift of God (to Men)."
Letter 208
"In this mythical 'prehistory' immortality, strictly longevity co-extensive with the life of Arda, was pan of the given nature of the Elves; beyond the End nothing was revealed. Mortality, that is a short life-span having no relation to the life of Arda, is spoken of as the given nature of Men: the Elves called it the Gift of Ilúvatar (God)."
Letter 212
"If Aragorn had yielded to Arwen’s entreaties, he would have become decrepit, at least in body, very soon."
NoMe, Time-scales and “rates of growth”

And we can presume 'the fate of men' was something akin to 'Jesus takes you to Heaven', though it's never explained in the book that way, I'd think that's why he makes such a distinction between the world-bound, undying elves and men who die and disappear mysteriously.

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

He is 'burned with the house’ but he does it BEFORE HE HAS LEAVE TO DO SO! Gandalf’s view is that you still have a duty that was given to you by the Kings, and you will be going against their law if you do this - THAT is the major issue Gandalf has! Denethor’s life is not his own, it BELONGS to Aragorn! But Denethor DEFIES that, he has had enough of that!



When Arwen is sitting beside a completely healthy Aragorn and BEGS him to stay just a little longer but Aragorn’s like NO it’s not in my aesthetic to be OLD and DISABLED I have to die now, goodbye, that’s somehow better?? As if he doesn’t have a duty of care to his wife, his son, his daughters, his people???
The hypocrisy!


What "acts of evil"?? He was not corrupted by Sauron. There's not one act that was motivated by evil.

I see only a desperate man - but a great man, a noble ruler, who had ruled Gondor, wielded the palantir, and held Sauron and the forces of Mordor at bay for DECADES. A strong man, finally broken by the death of both his sons, who was grieving for his sons, his city, his people. His last desperate act, at the very end of hope, was trying to prevent the torture of himself and Faramir, and the desecration of their bodies. He was motivated by love for his son and defiance of Sauron in his final act, not evil.

Peter Jackson has such a lot to answer for

I don't recall what scene you're talking about with Aragorn wanting to die. If anything, it was Arwen who gave up her immortality to be with Aragorn, since she was an immortal Elf. Aragorn went to the Black Gate, knowing his chance of dying was almost certain, but that was to buy the Ring-bearer time to save the world, something that Arwen should have understood.

If you mean that he died eventually, he's a mortal man, so of course he would die. He even said in LOTR, somewhere, that when the child that was just born grows old, that he too would grow old. Since his son was not yet born, by the time his son started to get gray hair, Aragorn would be quite old and near the end of his life. Besides, him willingly dying might be a good thing, considering how his ancestors, in trying to cheat death, ended up sinking Numenor.

 

[Aldarion]

I don't recall what scene you're talking about with Aragorn wanting to die. If anything, it was Arwen who gave up her immortality to be with Aragorn, since she was an immortal Elf. Aragorn went to the Black Gate, knowing his chance of dying was almost certain, but that was to buy the Ring-bearer time to save the world, something that Arwen should have understood.

If you mean that he died eventually, he's a mortal man, so of course he would die. He even said in LOTR, somewhere, that when the child that was just born grows old, that he too would grow old. Since his son was not yet born, by the time his son started to get gray hair, Aragorn would be quite old and near the end of his life. Besides, him willingly dying might be a good thing, considering how his ancestors, in trying to cheat death, ended up sinking Numenor.

He is talking about the fact that Aragorn willingly gave up his life when he felt his end was near, instead of desperately holding on.

 

[Gloranthan]

I seriously doubt Aragorn would have been much 'use' to his family plugged into life support and slowly going senile. People differ on their opinions, but it can be seen as selfish for the family to insist on keeping someone alive who no longer feels a purpose. And it's not like he went in the woodshed with a shotgun, he just refused to expend more spiritual energy on himself to keep his body going.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

"Arwen was not an elf, but one of the half-elven who abandoned her elvish rights."
Letter 345