Questions about Turin, and The 🐲Dragon Helm Of Dor-Lomin

[Vorondil]

First did Turin use a shield.
Second what happened to the Dragon Helm.

 

[Elthir]

First did Turin use a shield.

I can't recall at the moment, but at one point some of the Petty-dwarves were available.

Just joking

That wouldn't have been nice.

Second what happened to the Dragon Helm.

Blue: JRRT
Purple: CJRT

In the Grey Annals (GA) Tolkien penciled in the margin of the entry for 489: "At once he (Beleg) set forth in search of Túrin [penciled in margin: bearing the Dragon-helm that Túrin had left in Menegroth)."

But in later writing Tolkien concluded that Túrin left the dragon helm in Dimbar, and Beleg brought it from there to Amon Rudh in the winter. And in GA 495 JRRT also added the note: "[Túrin in the battle wore the Dragon-helm]"

Thus Christopher Tolkien comments: "My father must have supposed therefore that Gwindor and Túrin carried it with them after Beleg's death, to Nargothrond." and he further notes an interesting, isolated piece of writing:

"Beleg searching the orc-camp [in Taur-nu-fuin] finds the dragon-helm -- or was it set
on Túrin's head in mockery by the orcs that tormented him? Thus it was born away to Nargothrond; but Túrin would not wear it again, lest it reveal him, until the battle of Talath Dirnen."

The note continues with the details that Glaurung desired to rid Túrin of the aid and protection of the helm, taunting him:

"And indeed so great was the terror of the Dragon that Túrin dared not look straight upon his eye, but had kept the visor of his helmet down, shielding his face, and in his parley had looked no higher than Glaurung's feet. But being thus taunted, in pride and rashness he thrust up the visor and looked Glaurung in the eye."

And in GA again, before the doors of Felagund (penciled against a paragraph): "For while he wore the Dragon-helm of Galion he was proof against the glance of Glaurung."

And from Unfinished Tales: "Finally there is the suggestion that Túrin was to wear the helm when he slew Glaurung, and would taunt the Dragon at his death with his words at Nargothrond about 'a master of another name; but there is no indication of how the narrative was to be managed to bring this about."

in The Wanderings of Húrin (The War of the Jewels) Christopher Tolkien presents two pieces both generally described as a "record of emerging ideas" -- these are given before Christopher gives the story of Húrin in Brethil. In the second piece, JRRT wrote, among other things:

"But ^ [?new] Lord gives the dragon-helm to Húrin. His heart is hot against Thingol. . ."

The space marked by a caret evidently awaited the name of the new Lord of Brethil.

 

[Vorondil]

So nobody knows what happened to the helm.

 

[Elthir]

Maybe it ended up in the Sea.

Or possibly the British Museum. One day I asked about it and one of the museum curators gave a long pause before claiming that she had never even heard of the Helm of Hador -- a sure sign that she knew all about it, in my opinion, whether or not it was there.

Long story short, I was thrown out (landed on all fours) after sneaking into a restricted area near room 41 (Sutton Hoo and Europe), the Sir Paul and Lady Ruddock Gallery.

 

[Vorondil]

Or possibly the British Museum. One day I asked about it and one of the museum curators gave a long pause before claiming that she had never even heard of the Helm of Hador -- a sure sign that she knew all about it, in my opinion, whether or not it was there.

Long story short, I was thrown out (landed on all fours) after sneaking into a restricted area near room 41 (Sutton Hoo and Europe), the Sir Paul and Lady Ruddock Gallery.

You know, we had a similar experience when we went on holiday to Ireland, we went to the natural history museum in Dublin and asked if they had any orcs (meaning the bird type), the guy we asked had no idea what we were talking about, and asked if we meant orcs from LOTR, we regretfully, had to say no, not that kind of orc.

 

[Olorgando]

You know, we had a similar experience when we went on holiday to Ireland, we went to the natural history museum in Dublin and asked if they had any orcs (meaning the bird type), the guy we asked had no idea what we were talking about, and asked if we meant orcs from LOTR, we regretfully, had to say no, not that kind of orc.

I have this dim feeling that the birds you meant are the auks, family Alcidae, called "Alk" in German (and many species of the family have different names in North America and English-speaking Europe).

 

[Vorondil]

I have this dim feeling that the birds you meant are the auks, family Alcidae, called "Alk" in German (and many species of the family have different names in North America and English-speaking Europe).

That dost be correct, sadly the chap at the desk had never heard of them.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I can't recall at the moment, but at one point some of the Petty-dwarves were available.

Just joking

That wouldn't have been nice.




Blue: JRRT
Purple: CJRT

In the Grey Annals (GA) Tolkien penciled in the margin of the entry for 489: "At once he (Beleg) set forth in search of Túrin [penciled in margin: bearing the Dragon-helm that Túrin had left in Menegroth)."

But in later writing Tolkien concluded that Túrin left the dragon helm in Dimbar, and Beleg brought it from there to Amon Rudh in the winter. And in GA 495 JRRT also added the note: "[Túrin in the battle wore the Dragon-helm]"

Thus Christopher Tolkien comments: "My father must have supposed therefore that Gwindor and Túrin carried it with them after Beleg's death, to Nargothrond." and he further notes an interesting, isolated piece of writing:

"Beleg searching the orc-camp [in Taur-nu-fuin] finds the dragon-helm -- or was it set
on Túrin's head in mockery by the orcs that tormented him? Thus it was born away to Nargothrond; but Túrin would not wear it again, lest it reveal him, until the battle of Talath Dirnen."

The note continues with the details that Glaurung desired to rid Túrin of the aid and protection of the helm, taunting him:

"And indeed so great was the terror of the Dragon that Túrin dared not look straight upon his eye, but had kept the visor of his helmet down, shielding his face, and in his parley had looked no higher than Glaurung's feet. But being thus taunted, in pride and rashness he thrust up the visor and looked Glaurung in the eye."

And in GA again, before the doors of Felagund (penciled against a paragraph): "For while he wore the Dragon-helm of Galion he was proof against the glance of Glaurung."

And from Unfinished Tales: "Finally there is the suggestion that Túrin was to wear the helm when he slew Glaurung, and would taunt the Dragon at his death with his words at Nargothrond about 'a master of another name; but there is no indication of how the narrative was to be managed to bring this about."

in The Wanderings of Húrin (The War of the Jewels) Christopher Tolkien presents two pieces both generally described as a "record of emerging ideas" -- these are given before Christopher gives the story of Húrin in Brethil. In the second piece, JRRT wrote, among other things:

"But ^ [?new] Lord gives the dragon-helm to Húrin. His heart is hot against Thingol. . ."

The space marked by a caret evidently awaited the name of the new Lord of Brethil.

In which year does Battle of Talath Dirnen mentioned in the article you mentioned take place? And does Turin participate? It seems like I've never heard of this war before.

 

[Elthir]

In which year does Battle of Talath Dirnen mentioned in the article you mentioned take place? And does Turin participate? It seems like I've never heard of this war before.

Hello Amdír. It's essentially the Battle of Tumhalad, in which the good guys were driven back, pressed by the orcs into a field between two rivers.

In earlier texts, the battle took place on The Guarded Plain (Talath Dirnen appears to mean "Guarded Plain") north of Nargothrond, "between Narog and Taiglin", but in an isolated piece of writing among the Narn materials, JRRT seems to have added some swimming/ crossing water here.

By his own admission, Christopher Tolkien isn't sure that he should have followed this isolated text for the constructed Silmarillion, but in any case, he did. But notice the later Children of Húrin description. For comparison, first, the 1977 Silmarillion:

" . . . and the Elves were driven back and pressed by the Orcs into the field of Tumhalad, between Ginglith and Narog, and there they were penned." The Silmarillion

"The Elves were driven back and defeated on the field of Tumhalad; and there all the pride and host of Nargothrond withered away." The Children of Húrin

The rivers have "vanished"!

Or have they?

🐾

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Hello Amdír. It's essentially the Battle of Tumhalad, in which the good guys were driven back, pressed by the orcs into a field between two rivers.

In earlier texts, the battle took place on The Guarded Plain (Talath Dirnen appears to mean "Guarded Plain") north of Nargothrond, "between Narog and Taiglin", but in an isolated piece of writing among the Narn materials, JRRT seems to have added some swimming/ crossing rivers here.

By his own admission, Christopher Tolkien isn't sure that he should have followed this isolated text for the constructed Silmarillion, but in any case, he did. But notice the later Children of Húrin description. For comparison, first, the 1977 Silmarillion:

" . . . and the Elves were driven back and pressed by the Orcs into the field of Tumhalad, between Ginglith and Narog, and there they were penned." The Silmarillion

"The Elves were driven back and defeated on the field of Tumhalad; and there all the pride and host of Nargothrond withered away." The Children of Húrin

The rivers have "vanished"!

Or have they?

🐾

The Six Degrees of Túrin Turambar

In Which the Son of Húrin Is Raised Among Elves, Goes Out to Seek His (Mis)fortune, and Becomes a Host of Household Names While At Least Trying to Not Wreck All of Beleriand The fantastical yet tra…

www.tor.com

With his reworked sword and a scary-ass dwarf-mask that he retrieves from the city’s armories, Túrin heads out into Talath Dirnen, the Guarded Plain, that open land between Nargothrond and Doriath, and once again he goes out into battle.

In the link and article above, it is written that Turin went to battle in Talath Dirnen. Maybe Is this the war mentioned in the Grey Annals?

 

[Elthir]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough above, but it's the same general encounter, referred to by different names.

And the confusion I'm referring to can be found in Christopher Tolkien's commentary to The Grey Annals, section 275, The War of The Jewels, where he [CJRT] begins: "The site of the battle is not made clear. (. . .)."

Also of possible interest here, in Tolkien's mind (or notes anyway), Túrin went to this battle wearing the Dragon Helm (the dwarf-mask, used by Christopher Tolkien in the story, was an earlier idea).

🐾