Did Eru Create The Void Beyond Ea?

[Fihsouu]

Did Eru create the void outside of Ea? And does he exist beyond it?

 

[KatieLee]

I feel like Tolkien leaves a lot of this type of speculation up to each reader, though, I personally believe his intention was to make Eru comparable to God in Catholicism. Since God created everything... Then I believe that Eru was intended to mirror this. He either existed eternally along side the void as the sole being or brought it into existence with his thought before creating anything else.

 

[Fihsouu]

I feel like Tolkien leaves a lot of this type of speculation up to each reader, though, I personally believe his intention was to make Eru comparable to God in Catholicism. Since God created everything... Then I believe that Eru was intended to mirror this. He either existed eternally along side the void as the sole being or brought it into existence with his thought before creating anything else.

Yeah,I personally think he created it as it's a space that hasn't been created with anything in it. So I think Eru created it after the Ainur as it's the first thing that Eru created.

 

[Goldilocks Gamgee]

I have a question. Is the Void a literal place, or is it the absence of a place (i.e. empty nothingness)? Because, if it's the second option, then Eru would not need to create it. If it is, then it would have to be created by Eru Illuvatar, of he would not be the God of this universe.

 

[Fihsouu]

I have a question. Is the Void a literal place, or is it the absence of a place (i.e. empty nothingness)? Because, if it's the second option, then Eru would not need to create it. If it is, then it would have to be created by Eru Illuvatar, of he would not be the God of this universe.

I would say it's a state of non-creation, the ground floor of existence. Its basically a space that is isn't filled by anything. Also a void is the closest thing we have to an "empty nothingness".

I would say that Eru created this place, as it's where he can create things. It's like his canvas to create. He must have created it after the Ainur as it's the first thing Eru created and the timeless halls should exist above the void.

"Then Eru would not need to create it"? What do you mean by this?

Also Eru should be an manifestation of the omnipotent power, it's the form he takes to talk to his creations.

 

[KatieLee]

I would say it's a state of non-creation, the ground floor of existence. Its basically a space that is isn't filled by anything. Also a void is the closest thing we have to an "empty nothingness".

My thoughts exactly. Our idea of a void, the word used to describe it, creates something in our minds that we in ourselves can understand. I would say that our idea of "Empty nothingness" is possibly nothing like what existence (if it could even be described as such a thing) before a void would have been.

So again, it's up to speculation. Again, I'm pulling from some thoughts that I've had in regards to real world Christianity and those that believe in a God that creates, like Eru. If Eru created all, and he indeed did create the void, then the idea of the nothing before that would inevitably escape our ability to comprehend it altogether.

I have a question. Is the Void a literal place, or is it the absence of a place (i.e. empty nothingness)? Because, if it's the second option, then Eru would not need to create it. If it is, then it would have to be created by Eru Illuvatar, of he would not be the God of this universe.

If the void did exist before or with Eru in the eternity before and it is the nothingness that existed before creation as we comprehend it, then I don't think that is an argument for him not being the God of the universe. You would be saying then that "Someone or something had to create something before the creator" which is in itself a circular argument, because then who or what created the thing before. It is a difficult argument to take up and understand when looking at a world from a creation standpoint, even a fictional one.

I feel like my words escape me and do nothing to bring this discussion justice. But hey, I'm trying!

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

I feel like my words escape me and do nothing to bring this discussion justice. But hey, I'm trying!

Just the contrary - you're doing well! The purpose of philosophy is to debate without truly arriving at an answer, yet striving to find deeper meaning.

 

[Fihsouu]

My thoughts exactly. Our idea of a void, the word used to describe it, creates something in our minds that we in ourselves can understand. I would say that our idea of "Empty nothingness" is possibly nothing like what existence (if it could even be described as such a thing) before a void would have been.

So again, it's up to speculation. Again, I'm pulling from some thoughts that I've had in regards to real world Christianity and those that believe in a God that creates, like Eru. If Eru created all, and he indeed did create the void, then the idea of the nothing before that would inevitably escape our ability to comprehend it altogether.


If the void did exist before or with Eru in the eternity before and it is the nothingness that existed before creation as we comprehend it, then I don't think that is an argument for him not being the God of the universe. You would be saying then that "Someone or something had to create something before the creator" which is in itself a circular argument, because then who or what created the thing before. It is a difficult argument to take up and understand when looking at a world from a creation standpoint, even a fictional one.

I feel like my words escape me and do nothing to bring this discussion justice. But hey, I'm trying!

Yeah, in real life nothingness is impossible since it's very nature contradicts itself so it's a contradictory concept. But this is fictional so it's unlimited in its scope. Nothingness does not exist and isn't possible, so it isn't a void or a point because they can exist. They have extensions, existence and influence on things whole nothingness cannot. So when something is described as nothingness, it's best to think of a similar state of existence like a void because nothingness is impossible.

As a Muslim , I don't like to mix Real life and fiction. So if something existed that isn't created by God who is eternal, it doesn't matter because it's fiction where anything is possible unless it contradicts logic/Meaning. But I agree with it.

I can best describe the void as Eru mind, it's his canvas where his thoughts take place. It's where his creations are created on. So yes he created it.

 

[Tar-Elenion]

I have a question. Is the Void a literal place, or is it the absence of a place (i.e. empty nothingness)? Because, if it's the second option, then Eru would not need to create it. If it is, then it would have to be created by Eru Illuvatar, of he would not be the God of this universe.

"...and the places of the dwelling of Ilúvatar were filled to overflowing, and the music and the echo of the music went out into the Void, and it was not void."
MR, Ainulindale C
"But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: ‘Behold your Music!’ And he showed to them a vision, giving to them sight where before was only hearing; and they saw a new World made visible before them, and it was globed amid the Void, and it was sustained therein, but was not of it."
op.cit.
"It therefore seems clear that the cosmogonic mythology should represent Arda as it is, more or less: an island in the void 'amidst the innumerable stars'."
MR, MT
"But as is elsewhere written Melkor was at that time defeated with the aid of Tulkas (who was not among those who began the building of Ea) and driven out again into the Void that lay about Arda."
op,cit.

"Arda, or 'The Kingdom of Arda' (as being directly under the kingship of Eru's vice-gerent Manwe) is not easy to translate, since neither 'earth' nor 'world' are entirely suitable. Physically Arda was what we should call the Solar System. Presumably the Eldar could have had as much and as accurate information concerning this, its structure, origin, and its relation to the rest of Ea (the Universe) as they could comprehend."
MR, Athrabeth

The Void is interstellar space.

 

[KatieLee]

I can best describe the void as Eru mind, it's his canvas where his thoughts take place. It's where his creations are created on. So yes he created it.

This description is amazing, and I wholeheartedly agree with it.

 

[Eljorahir]

Did Eru create the void outside of Ea?

If "void" means no matter, no energy, no time, no space...then I think it requires no creator.

Another thought:

"But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void; and a guard is set for ever on those walls, and Earendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky."

If Morgoth is in a void, then it's no longer a void. This topic is making my head hurt.

 

[Aldarion]

If "void" means no matter, no energy, no time, no space...then I think it requires no creator.

Another thought:

"But Morgoth himself the Valar thrust through the Door of Night beyond the Walls of the World, into the Timeless Void; and a guard is set for ever on those walls, and Earendil keeps watch upon the ramparts of the sky."

If Morgoth is in a void, then it's no longer a void. This topic is making my head hurt.

That depends wholly on whether Morgoth was stripped of his corporeal form beforehand...

 

[Olorgando]

If Morgoth is in a void, then it's no longer a void. This topic is making my head hurt.

That depends wholly on whether Morgoth was stripped of his corporeal form beforehand...

In my books (and earlier, popular science magazines) on astronomy, when the authors strayed into astrophysics, the term "vacuum fluctuation" (or "quantum fluctuation") occasionally cropped up. If I got other parts of the chapters or articles right, the concept behind the term often makes even the heads of advanced (astro-) physicists hurt. So is Morgoth responsible for all of that weird stuff quantum physics predicts and occasionally observes? Beginning students of the field who are also JRRT fans might think so ... 🤔😟😬🥶😵🤪

 

[Eljorahir]

Beginning students of the field who are also JRRT fans might think so ... 🤔😟😬🥶😵🤪

Long ago, I had one semester of "Modern Physics". The first half was all about special and general relativity: the coolest stuff I've ever learned in my life, and it was understandable. The second half was Introduction to Quantum Mechanics: to this day, I can remember some of the terminology, but have not the slightest grasp of what it's all about...obviously a creation of Morgoth Bauglir.

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

obviously a creation of Morgoth Bauglir.

So, are those scientists studying quantum physics thus under the influence of Morgoth...? 😳

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

but have not the slightest grasp of what it's all about...

I wouldn't worry about it.

Those who are not shocked when they first come across quantum mechanics cannot possibly have understood it.

If anybody says he can think about quantum problems without getting giddy, that only shows he has not understood the first thing about them.

Niels Bohr.

I believe he also said "Anyone who claims they understand quantum physics is just demonstrating that they don't".

 

[Olorgando]

So, are those scientists studying quantum physics thus under the influence of Morgoth...? 😳

Maybe more the ones dealing with string theory. To work, it needs eleven dimensions (at least if I got that right for one of the variations). The other seven besides space-time are kind of ... compressed? ... into something that could pass for "the void" ... maybe ... 🤪

 

[Ent]

Again, I'm pulling from some thoughts that I've had in regards to real world Christianity and those that believe in a God that creates, like Eru. If Eru created all, and he indeed did create the void, then the idea of the nothing before that would inevitably escape our ability to comprehend it altogether.

From the Christian perspective, we need to modify this just slightly.
God is 'infinite'. There is nothing bigger than 'infinite'. He is the only thing that is 'infinite'.
He does not create things 'outside of Himself.'

All that He creates, He creates "within" Himself. (it can be thought of as 'inside' of Himself as well, but not if 'inside' is conceived as 'excluding' him.)

As He has no bounds, but all that we know DOES have bounds, he is ipso facto OUTSIDE of everything else. Not beside it. Not external to it. But, being infinite, he is both "outside" and "inside" it... 'every place at the same time'.

As Tolkien's Christ said: I in Him and He in me, and you in me".... understanding that the Christ is also "God" made flesh.

Not to go too much farther with this line of thinking...

If in fact Eru, then, is to be like the God of Christianity, as he alone was before anything was, then the Void was not there before him either, and it too was created 'within' him, and he within it. Eru doesn't need to 'travel' anywhere.

We think of "Eru led them out into the Void" as simply Eru 'manifesting' himself to them so they could follow him... not that he was actually 'in' a singular place.
(He may also have 'mentally' led them out.... not outside the realm of possiblity.)

But this presupposes that indeed Tolkien ment Eru to be a complete similarity to the God of Christianity... a concept he himself might say he disagrees with. (Though I'm not certain he was able to truly divorce himself from his beliefs.)

 

[Fihsouu]

From the Christian perspective, we need to modify this just slightly.
God is 'infinite'. There is nothing bigger than 'infinite'. He is the only thing that is 'infinite'.
He does not create things 'outside of Himself.'

All that He creates, He creates "within" Himself. (it can be thought of as 'inside' of Himself as well, but not if 'inside' is conceived as 'excluding' him.)

As He has no bounds, but all that we know DOES have bounds, he is ipso facto OUTSIDE of everything else. Not beside it. Not external to it. But, being infinite, he is both "outside" and "inside" it... 'every place at the same time'.

As Tolkien's Christ said: I in Him and He in me, and you in me".... understanding that the Christ is also "God" made flesh.

Not to go too much farther with this line of thinking...

If in fact Eru, then, is to be like the God of Christianity, as he alone was before anything was, then the Void was not there before him either, and it too was created 'within' him, and he within it. Eru doesn't need to 'travel' anywhere.

We think of "Eru led them out into the Void" as simply Eru 'manifesting' himself to them so they could follow him... not that he was actually 'in' a singular place.
(He may also have 'mentally' led them out.... not outside the realm of possiblity.)

But this presupposes that indeed Tolkien ment Eru to be a complete similarity to the God of Christianity... a concept he himself might say he disagrees with. (Though I'm not certain he was able to truly divorce himself from his beliefs.)

Very Good explanation sir. I agree with.

I the the concept of the void from Christianity and LOTR is quite similar. In the Christian mythos, God created the universe and it was a big space of nothing/void. While in LOTR, Eru created the ainur and sang and all that was became in the void.

So I think as you said, God doesn't exist beside things he exists beyond everything including infinity as it's still a limited number since it has a starting point while God doesn't.

In my opinion, Eru basically created the the timeless halls which is a realm above the void, then created space(Void) which he used to make his creation.

What do you think of this? Very intrigued by your answer.

 

[Ent]

What do you think of this? Very intrigued by your answer.

Ent sees your question. Ent hasn't pondered this piece specifically, but does have thoughts. Wants to check just a couple things regarding creation order before he responds. Hasn't reviewed them in a short while.