Which of Melkor's Allies Were 🧙Maiar and Which Were Engineered By Him?

[Barrow Wight]

Which of Melkor's allies were rebellious Maiar that took physical form and which were "engineered" by Melkor/Morgoth as he hung out in Utumno and then Angband? Ungoliant seems to have been a spiritual being of some sort that took physical form, without any "creative help" from Melkor. The Balrogs and Sauron were Maiar that took physical shape in Arda. On the other hand, orcs were elves who were mutated by Melkor. Glaurung, Ancalagon, and the other dragons apparently were engineered by Morgoth--from what? Melkor never got his hands on Iluvatar's everlasting fire of creativity and thus could not simply "create" beings out of nothing. What about things like werewolves, talking wargs, "vampires," the more generic spiders like Shelob, and the later fell beasts? Were these engineered Blackbriar/Outcome agents from Morgoth's lab or fallen Maiar?

 

[d4rk3lf]

We don't know.
We certainly know that Sauron and Balrogs are the maiars, but for Ungoliant it was never stated clearly.
I personally think she is probably a maia, but some people would argue that she is like a materialized void...
I'd also like to believe that Tom Bombandil is a maia, but then again, some would argue that he is materialized nature in the form of powerful humanoid being.

As for the Dragons, we also don't know. They might have initially be some gigantic lizards, and then Morgoth gave them part of his powers, raising their intelligence, and strength , and later, giving them ability to fly.
But they also might initially maia spirits (although, I think of lesser power then Balrogs).

Shelob is an Ungoliant child, and the spiders from the Hobbit are her offspring.

As for the werewolves, talking wargs and vampires... they might be some tortured evil spirits trapped in the body, with the intervention of Melcor or Sauron. We can see that even much less powerful Witch King of Angmar have similar abilities being able to create Barrow Wights.

 

[Ent]

rebellious Maiar

Melkor took a good number of Maiar who agreed with his discord with him from the beginning.
Certainly the Balrogs.
There were undoubtedly Maiar taking other forms.
There were also undoubtedly many of the rebellious Maiar taking no form whatsoever, or other forms to work deceiptions too, if they chose perhaps. We don't know.
Ent has read it said somewhere the Wargs were just 'bent wolves' so to speak, but the werewolves were 'inhabited by spirits' (maiar). But in his own study, could find no other assurance of that, and remembers not being entirely convinced by the one source he read it in. Most other mention of the Wolves, Wargs and Werewolves used them all interchangeably between the stories we read of them in. We do know Carc, I believe the worst 'wolf' ever, was a breed by Melkor for his protection. And Sauron made most of the others - or even all of them as far as we know.

The only real mention we have of "spirits" inhabiting "creatures" is from Eru through Manwe when Manwe reassures Yavanna her 'dreams' would come to be, when her thought 'awakened spirits from afar' and they came to inhabit olvar and kelvar to aid in their protection.

The unnatural Spiders are always talked about as having been the brood of Ungoliant, whose origins not even the Valar knew. Shelob the last of Ungoliants brood, and the spiders of Mirkwood Shelobs.

So outside of the Balrogs whom we KNOW are Maiar, the rest is a bit of speculation... other than that we know many Maiar were create and do not figure in any of the Stories... some having followed Melkor in his rebellion. Outside of that, Ent holds it as pertaining to:

 

[Barrow Wight]

We don't know.
We certainly know that Sauron and Balrogs are the maiars, but for Ungoliant it was never stated clearly.
I personally think she is probably a maia, but some people would argue that she is like a materialized void...
I'd also like to believe that Tom Bombandil is a maia, but then again, some would argue that he is materialized nature in the form of powerful humanoid being.

As for the Dragons, we also don't know. They might have initially be some gigantic lizards, and then Morgoth gave them part of his powers, raising their intelligence, and strength , and later, giving them ability to fly.
But they also might initially maia spirits (although, I think of lesser power then Balrogs).

Shelob is an Ungoliant child, and the spiders from the Hobbit are her offspring.

As for the werewolves, talking wargs and vampires... they might be some tortured evil spirits trapped in the body, with the intervention of Melcor or Sauron. We can see that even much less powerful Witch King of Angmar have similar abilities being able to create Barrow Wights.

With whom/what did Ungoliant mate to create the Shelobs of Middle Earth? Did Morgoth create the original spiders with whom Ungoliant later mated, or were they, too, Maiar/spirits that materialized in the physical form of spiders?

 

[d4rk3lf]

With whom/what did Ungoliant mate to create the Shelobs of Middle Earth?

All I know is this (from Silmarillion:

h she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror that she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs.

So this is from where Shelob were born.
Now I doubt these creatures in form of spiders have been inhabited with maia's spirits. I think, even for Ungoliant it would be hard to devour creatures with maia spirit (even lesser ones), so I assume these are spirits of much smaller scales.

Keep in mind also, that Tolkien changed some stuff over the years.
For example: in first versions of Silmarilion, there were a thousands of Balrogs under Motgoth, but later he changed it to no more then 7 (and I am really glad he did that, because it makes Balrogs (and maias) much more powerful).

 

[Barrow Wight]

All I know is this (from Silmarillion:

So this is from where Shelob were born.
Now I doubt these creatures in form of spiders have been inhabited with maia's spirits. I think, even for Ungoliant it would be hard to devour creatures with maia spirit (even lesser ones), so I assume these are spirits of much smaller scales.

Keep in mind also, that Tolkien changed some stuff over the years.
For example: in first versions of Silmarilion, there were a thousands of Balrogs under Motgoth, but later he changed it to no more then 7 (and I am really glad he did that, because it makes Balrogs (and maias) much more powerful).

I tend to agree that the original spiders in Middle Earth were not Maiar manifesting in a physical form, because they evidently appeared only after Angband was established. This suggests they were engineered in some fashion by Morgoth. If the spiders originally were Maiar, like, say, the Balrogs, they presumably would have descended/materialized when Melkor first moved into Middle Earth, well before Angband was set up.

 

[Amon Rudh]

The Lost Road and Other Writings suggests that Morgoth created Orcs from scratch in mockery of Elves rather than from Elves.

 

[1stvermont]

Most other mention of the Wolves, Wargs and Werewolves used them all interchangeably between the stories we read of them in. We do know Carc, I believe the worst 'wolf' ever, was a breed by Melkor for his protection. And Sauron made most of the others - or even all of them as far as we know.

This was always my understanding that werewolves are wargs; Vampires were bats. I have citations to support my stance, but I can't find where I have placed them.:

I think it was a combo of letters, HOME, and the reliable Foster.

 

[Ent]

I have citations to support my stance,

I have citations I've posted here somewhere as well... though I can't recall where.

There are even a couple spots where the beasts are called 'wolves' then 'wargs' and/or werewolves in the same sentence, and/or just a paragraph or two apart though obviously referring to the same creatures.

If needed I can rummage around and see if I can find them... or do the study again at some point.
I could find no 'clear' evidence they were anything other than the same species twisted and bred to do different things... much like the many twistings of the Orcs.

Some want to attribute anything that can 'speak' to an indwelling Maia... but I've never found clear evidence that "must be" the case... however logical (or is that 'hopeful') such a stance may be.

We do know the 'spirits from afar' (which many assume to be Maia because, well, what else could they be?), came and inhabited both olvar and kelvar... but we sure don't see a lot of the plants running around talking, and many beasts (like the fox) seemed to be able to think, but did not vocalize.

"A fox passing through the wood on business of his own stopped several minutes and sniffed. ‘Hobbits!’ he thought. ‘Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There’s something mighty queer behind this.’ He was quite right, but he never found out any more about it." Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord Of The Rings: One Volume (p. 72). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

Wargs were obviously bred to be big, fast, and mean. The purpose of the werewolves is (to me) so far a little more unclear, other than another fear-factor, and some day I may go back to it.

Some Maia may have decided to take the form of a Warg or Werewolf, or some 'spirit' (maybe Maia) to inhabit one...I could locate no clear reference - but the beasts themselves were just more of Morgoth and (mostly) Sauron's animalia twisted to their services in one way or another.

As to the 'vampires' being bats, there's absolutely no evidence they were Maiar in my view.

Though it is said they were among the 'spies', there's no reason to think the ability to understand them was any different than Gandalf's or Radagast's ability to 'communicate' with animals.

or the "old thrush" who could be understood, or old Roac and Carc. And of course there's the exchange where Balin the dwarf is suspicious of the 'nasty, suspicious looking crows' who were calling 'ugly names' after the troup... but the dwarves had great friendship with the ravens, who formerly brought them secret news.

Were they all maiar? We hardly think so. This is a fantasy in many ways... yes... a fantasy. Fantastic things happen in a fantasy.

 

[Ent]

I think it was a combo of letters, HOME, and the reliable Foster.

If these were your sources sir 1stvermont, that's great addition.
I'm almost certain all my sources came from a (fairly) close review and display of passages from SIL, TH and LoTR alone.

Perhaps at some point I can add an essay on the matter... maybe I can find, too, something about HOW these creatures were able to be twisted away from the purpose of their original by Eru into depravity. (though I already feel 1) there isn't much said about it, and 2) - the 'how' at the same time is relatively obvious, as is all fall into corruption.)

One question I'm still working on is, are 'the spirits from afar' Yavanna's thought calls forth to inhabit the olvar and kelvar some of the 'lesser maiar'? Or are they different spirits of some kind entirely. I believe they almost have to be of the lesser maiar, as I've not found or read of any other spirits being created than the Ainur and Maiar. But I've not touched all resources yet as some of our other experts have.

Does this mean the Wargs, werewolves, etc. were all twisted Maiar? No, not at all.
What it does mean is some of the twisted Maiar may have decided to inhabit some of the wolves, wargs and werewolves.
There's a huge difference.

 

[1stvermont]

I have citations I've posted here somewhere as well... though I can't recall where.

There are even a couple spots where the beasts are called 'wolves' then 'wargs' and/or werewolves in the same sentence, and/or just a paragraph or two apart though obviously referring to the same creatures.

If needed I can rummage around and see if I can find them... or do the study again at some point.
I could find no 'clear' evidence they were anything other than the same species twisted and bred to do different things... much like the many twistings of the Orcs.

Some want to attribute anything that can 'speak' to an indwelling Maia... but I've never found clear evidence that "must be" the case... however logical (or is that 'hopeful') such a stance may be.

We do know the 'spirits from afar' (which many assume to be Maia because, well, what else could they be?), came and inhabited both olvar and kelvar... but we sure don't see a lot of the plants running around talking, and many beasts (like the fox) seemed to be able to think, but did not vocalize.

"A fox passing through the wood on business of his own stopped several minutes and sniffed. ‘Hobbits!’ he thought. ‘Well, what next? I have heard of strange doings in this land, but I have seldom heard of a hobbit sleeping out of doors under a tree. Three of them! There’s something mighty queer behind this.’ He was quite right, but he never found out any more about it." Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Lord Of The Rings: One Volume (p. 72). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

Wargs were obviously bred to be big, fast, and mean. The purpose of the werewolves is (to me) so far a little more unclear, other than another fear-factor, and some day I may go back to it.

Some Maia may have decided to take the form of a Warg or Werewolf, or some 'spirit' (maybe Maia) to inhabit one...I could locate no clear reference - but the beasts themselves were just more of Morgoth and (mostly) Sauron's animalia twisted to their services in one way or another.

As to the 'vampires' being bats, there's absolutely no evidence they were Maiar in my view.

Though it is said they were among the 'spies', there's no reason to think the ability to understand them was any different than Gandalf's or Radagast's ability to 'communicate' with animals.

or the "old thrush" who could be understood, or old Roac and Carc. And of course there's the exchange where Balin the dwarf is suspicious of the 'nasty, suspicious looking crows' who were calling 'ugly names' after the troup... but the dwarves had great friendship with the ravens, who formerly brought them secret news.

Were they all maiar? We hardly think so. This is a fantasy in many ways... yes... a fantasy. Fantastic things happen in a fantasy.

I like your take, the trolls that Bilbo met were able to communicate via speech, but were also very dull, hardly what one would expect from an angelic being, fallen or otherwise. But that does not mean (as you stated) in some cases this might have occurred.