Lesser creatures of 🌋Mordor?

[Vorondil]

''For the orcs and lesser creatures of Mordor that had dwelt there had been destroyed in battle.''
What are the lesser creatures?

 

[Jimbo Baggins]

Don’t ask these questions: the lesser you know, the creatures won’t attack you.

 

[Ent]

What are the lesser creatures?

Thoughts abound, but Ent will see what he can dig up that has some veracity... will need to be later, after work though. Great question.

 

[Elthir]

Angband-style shadow-chickens

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Eggs of Evil.

 

[Jimbo Baggins]

Smeagle would be a lesser creature of Mordor.

 

[Ent]

@Aethelwulf -
Ent is thinking along the lines of the wolves, wargs, etc.
Melkor bred them first, and Sauron bread many, for both his use and Morgoth's.
Certainly lesser than Orcs....
but there must be others. this is the research Ent intends to do 'soon' here...

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Sauron apparently bred the Olog-hai trolls, but I'm not sure they could be called "lesser". 🤔

 

[Ent]

trolls,

Yes, Ent's been considering the trolls as well, with the same general difficulty.

Also the various Men twisted and enslaved to them. Lesser than Elves? (thus lesser than twisted Elves/Orcs??) Hard to tell. Ent thinks the Men were likely more driven by fear... where the Orcs were mostly driven by (fear and) a terrible hatred for both Elves and Men... but he's not certain this makes the men 'lesser'.

Thus they're off the plate absent something verifiable.

Ent seems to recall something about other winged creatures possibly, (not dragons nor the 'fell beasts' Sauron bred to carry the 9...) so he will be looking for those.

ut possibly the horses bred in Mordor to "suffer them" could be among the 'lesser creatures".

 

[CheriptheRipper]

Ent seems to recall something about other winged creatures possibly, (not dragons nor the 'fell beasts' Sauron bred to carry the 9...) so he will be looking for those.

Bats? Possible offspring off Thuringwethil 🤔

 

[Ent]

We read from SIL "

"for there Oromë would train his folk and his beasts for the pursuit of the evil creatures of Melkor."
.... If Oromë trained beasts for pursuit of Melkors 'evil creatures' then clearly some of those were 'beasts' as well. What kind? Uncertain.

"And Oromë tamer of beasts would ride too at whiles in the darkness of the unlit forests; as a mighty hunter he came with spear and bow, pursuing to the death the monsters and fell creatures of the kingdom of Melkor, and his white horse Nahar shone like silver in the shadows."
..... what would we put in the category of 'monsters', and would they possibly be 'lesser' than Orcs? Maybe.

"Therefore an army was sent against him under the command of Sauron; and Sauron brought were-wolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies."

"For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she (Ungoliant) mated with them," (But these spider 'creatures' are later called the 'creatures of Ungoliant rather than of Melkor/Morgoth.)
....in this case, we can assume these 'foul creatures of spider form' were not of Ungoliant, but were bred during the 'delving of Angband'. Thus we have Spiders confirmed to be among the corrupted creatures, certainly lesser than Orcs, as they can be fairly easily slain.

"So terrible did he (Carcaroth) become in his madness that all the creatures of Morgoth that abode in that valley, or were upon any of the roads that led thither, fled far away;

"From their far journeys they brought tidings of a great mustering of Orcs and evil creatures under the eaves of Ered Wethrin and in the Pass of Sirion;"

"‘There are fell beasts,’ they said, ‘in the land east of the mountains, and your ancient kindred that dwell there are flying from the plains to the hills.’ And ere long the evil creatures came even to Beleriand, over passes in the mountains, or up from the south through the dark forests. Wolves there were, or creatures that walked in wolf-shapes, and other fell beings of shadow; and among them were the Orcs,

"Thereafter the thought of Morgoth was bent unceasing on the mountainous land between Anach and the upper waters of Sirion, whither his servants had never passed; yet still no spy or creature out of Angband could come there because of the vigilance of the eagles, and Morgoth was thwarted in the fulfilment of his designs."

"But after many years, when well nigh a third of that age of the world had passed, a darkness crept slowly through the wood from the southward, and fear walked there in shadowy glades; fell beasts came hunting, and cruel and evil creatures laid there their snares. Then the name of the forest was changed and Mirkwood it was called, for the nightshade lay deep there, and few dared to pass through, save only in the north where Thranduil’s people still held the evil at bay."

"Many things of beauty and wonder remained on earth in that time, and many things also of evil and dread: Orcs there were and trolls and dragons and fell beasts, and strange creatures old and wise in the woods whose names are forgotten;" (rhis was in the 'fading years' as the age of Men was preparing.)


We also need to remember Eru says of the creation of the Dwarves:
... "‘Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?’"

And frequently men, Orcs, Elves etc. are referred to as 'creatures'. So it's entirely possible And we know Melkor and Sauron both corrupted some of all the races to their service... (except possibly hobbits, of whom it seems they knew nothing.)

All the above said: we know Melkor corrupted everything created, even the land. So IF there was a creature of any kind... a deer, a bear, a wofl, a rabbit, a bird, anything... he likely corrupted some into his 'fell creatures'.

But of actual specific MENTION, Ent has still found only "wolves" noted to this point.

NOTE: The term "fell" simply means "morally wrong or evil" - so when Saruman used the Crebain out of Fangorn and Dunland as his spies, he also 'corrupted' and made them "fell creatures" doing his bidding for evil.

Ent's current opinion/conclusion: Morgoth had many 'lesser creatures' of Mordor in his service of many kinds. But so far, only 'wolves' and 'spiders' are confirmed by name. We can surmise any and many others... but whether they are 'lesser' or 'greater' than Orcs will likely remain a matter of opinion.

 

[Vorondil]

We read from SIL "

"for there Oromë would train his folk and his beasts for the pursuit of the evil creatures of Melkor."
.... If Oromë trained beasts for pursuit of Melkors 'evil creatures' then clearly some of those were 'beasts' as well. What kind? Uncertain.

"And Oromë tamer of beasts would ride too at whiles in the darkness of the unlit forests; as a mighty hunter he came with spear and bow, pursuing to the death the monsters and fell creatures of the kingdom of Melkor, and his white horse Nahar shone like silver in the shadows."
..... what would we put in the category of 'monsters', and would they possibly be 'lesser' than Orcs? Maybe.

"Therefore an army was sent against him under the command of Sauron; and Sauron brought were-wolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies."

"For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she (Ungoliant) mated with them," (But these spider 'creatures' are later called the 'creatures of Ungoliant rather than of Melkor/Morgoth.)
....in this case, we can assume these 'foul creatures of spider form' were not of Ungoliant, but were bred during the 'delving of Angband'. Thus we have Spiders confirmed to be among the corrupted creatures, certainly lesser than Orcs, as they can be fairly easily slain.

"So terrible did he (Carcaroth) become in his madness that all the creatures of Morgoth that abode in that valley, or were upon any of the roads that led thither, fled far away;

"From their far journeys they brought tidings of a great mustering of Orcs and evil creatures under the eaves of Ered Wethrin and in the Pass of Sirion;"

"‘There are fell beasts,’ they said, ‘in the land east of the mountains, and your ancient kindred that dwell there are flying from the plains to the hills.’ And ere long the evil creatures came even to Beleriand, over passes in the mountains, or up from the south through the dark forests. Wolves there were, or creatures that walked in wolf-shapes, and other fell beings of shadow; and among them were the Orcs,

"Thereafter the thought of Morgoth was bent unceasing on the mountainous land between Anach and the upper waters of Sirion, whither his servants had never passed; yet still no spy or creature out of Angband could come there because of the vigilance of the eagles, and Morgoth was thwarted in the fulfilment of his designs."

"But after many years, when well nigh a third of that age of the world had passed, a darkness crept slowly through the wood from the southward, and fear walked there in shadowy glades; fell beasts came hunting, and cruel and evil creatures laid there their snares. Then the name of the forest was changed and Mirkwood it was called, for the nightshade lay deep there, and few dared to pass through, save only in the north where Thranduil’s people still held the evil at bay."

"Many things of beauty and wonder remained on earth in that time, and many things also of evil and dread: Orcs there were and trolls and dragons and fell beasts, and strange creatures old and wise in the woods whose names are forgotten;" (rhis was in the 'fading years' as the age of Men was preparing.)


We also need to remember Eru says of the creation of the Dwarves:
... "‘Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own being only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?’"

And frequently men, Orcs, Elves etc. are referred to as 'creatures'. So it's entirely possible And we know Melkor and Sauron both corrupted some of all the races to their service... (except possibly hobbits, of whom it seems they knew nothing.)

All the above said: we know Melkor corrupted everything created, even the land. So IF there was a creature of any kind... a deer, a bear, a wofl, a rabbit, a bird, anything... he likely corrupted some into his 'fell creatures'.

But of actual specific MENTION, Ent has still found only "wolves" noted to this point.

NOTE: The term "fell" simply means "morally wrong or evil" - so when Saruman used the Crebain out of Fangorn and Dunland as his spies, he also 'corrupted' and made them "fell creatures" doing his bidding for evil.

Ent's current opinion/conclusion: Morgoth had many 'lesser creatures' of Mordor in his service of many kinds. But so far, only 'wolves' and 'spiders' are confirmed by name. We can surmise any and many others... but whether they are 'lesser' or 'greater' than Orcs will likely remain a matter of opinion.

I've always been intrigued by the fell beasts mentioned in the Silmarillion.

 

[Ent]

Ent wonders what an 'immoral deer' would look like or do. (Other than spy for Melkor). One supposes if they got a chance, a stag would gore an Elf.
What about a wild boar? They're dangerous enough, without being twisted and corrupted.
Think of what we call 'wild dogs'. Or even, think of the basic nature of (most) Pit Bulls, for example. Bred inherently mean, immoral.
Even today, we have twisted people who twist animals for the 'ring'.. dogfights, cock fights, bullfights, etc.
There is much of Melkor in mankind still.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Ent wonders what an 'immoral deer' would look like or do. (Other than spy for Melkor). One supposes if they got a chance, a stag would gore an Elf.
What about a wild boar? They're dangerous enough, without being twisted and corrupted.
Think of what we call 'wild dogs'. Or even, think of the basic nature of (most) Pit Bulls, for example. Bred inherently mean, immoral.
Even today, we have twisted people who twist animals for the 'ring'.. dogfights, cock fights, bullfights, etc.
There is much of Melkor in mankind still.

Something like this...

 

[Vorondil]

Something like this...
View attachment 22482

A fine example of why one should not overdose on brussel sprouts and/or beans.

 

[Voronwë of Gondolin]

“so the creatures of Sauron, orc or troll or beast spell-enslaved, ran hither and thither mindless; and some slew themselves, or cast themselves in pits, or fled wailing back to hide in holes and dark lightless places far from hope.”
Chap 4, The Field of Cormallen

This description of trolls makes them seem “lesser”, comparing them to beasts:

“Trolls. Troll has been used to translate the Sindarin Torog. In their beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron had made use of them, teaching them what little they could learn and increasing their wits with wickedness.”
Appendix F

 

[Ent]

Ent believes he would concur with you @Voronwë of Gondolin. Again it comes down to 'definitions'. (and the language is a 'little' unclear, as the "or" in the sentence draws a distinct separation rather than comparison to 'beast spell-enslaved' as it does from 'Sauron, orc OR troll..."

How do we define 'lesser'? Certainly the troll is far 'lesser' in ability to think, coordinate, lead, and participate (much) outside of direction. Thus, significantly 'lesser'.
However, a Troll would be able to vanquish perhaps, quite a few Orcs, before it was slain by them... so in this respect 'greater'.

Possess great wonders, does Language.
Not always easy are solutions. Think carefully about them, we must.