What kept Gollum from fading?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

Gandalf outright stated that one that kept the Ring for long and used it to make oneself invisible would eventually fade and become a wraith or something. And he says that this would happen even if one had started out with good intentions and had some strength. However, Smeagol/Gollum started his ownership of the Ring with murder and probably didn't have any level of strength on par with the likes of Aragorn or the kings of Numenor, yet he was able to have some part of him untouched by the Ring (or so it seems, though maybe it fell in the very end), and he also did not fade.

Why was he able to do this? Was it merely because he was a Hobbit? Does this also mean that, in another universe, where a total takeover of the world by Sauron wasn't on the table, that theoretically a Bilbo that didn't give up the Ring was also never become a wraith?

 

[Deimos]

Everyone knows that exposure to UV radiation causes things to fade.
Sunlight is the most potent as well as the most prevalent source of UV radiation.
Gollum avoided sunlight whenever possible; he had minuscule exposure to it the entire 500 years after he took possession of the ring.
No UV exposure, no fading.
It is also why his clothing wouldn't fade (if he were wearing any).

 

[Ent]

personally, given all the evidence at hand, I think it's because he was written into the book that way.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

and used it to make oneself invisible

What he actually said was "if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible". Later, he says 'it was long since he had used it much: in the black darkness it was seldom needed. Certainly he had never "faded" '.

This applied to Bilbo too -- after returning from his adventures, he apparently used it very rarely. And as you mentioned, the toughness of hobbits applied to both, similar to the way the "toughness" of the Dwarves prevented them from fading.

theoretically a Bilbo that didn't give up the Ring was also never become a wraith?

No idea, really, although the Dwarves not only had their rings for thousands of years, but were apparently able to pass them down. So it's conceivable that hobbits might be able to do the same. However, we know the effects the rings had on the Dwarves; we don't know, aside from Gollum, who is something of a special case, the long-term effects on a "normal" hobbit.

 

[d4rk3lf]

As @Squint-eyed Southerner said, it's for 2 reasons:
1) Gollum didn't used ring too often. Only when hunting orcs, and their meat was bad substitute in comparison to fish in the lake, so he rarely did that.
2) Hobbits insane natural resistance to ring.

 

[Amon Rudh]

I agree with @d4rk3lf but one possibility (albeit I don't recall reading it anywhere specifically) is that as the ring has a kind of consciousness, it may have affected Gollum less 'on purpose' to allow Sauron time to reform and then released/lost itself again to allow someone else to take it back into the open world so it could reunite itself with its owner.

 

[d4rk3lf]

it may have affected Gollum less 'on purpose' to allow Sauron time to reform and then released/lost itself again to allow someone else to take it back into the open world so it could reunite itself with its owner.

Dunno about that bro...
I will google now.
So Golum found ring at 2463 T.A.
However Witch-king of Angmar started his war with Arnor at 1356 T.A. so more then 1000 years before, and if he found the ring, I am pretty sure it will be safe with him, until Sauron returns... Maybe even the ring would help Sauron take form faster. Maybe Sauron don't need full form to use the ring.. who knows?

However I think we can safely say that one of the reason that ring couldn't fully possess hobbits is their lack of ambition.
They are simply happy with cup of tea, fireplace and a cake. Gollum was happy with a finsh in the lake for 500 years (one of the reason ring abandoned him (it knows that as long as it stays with him, Gollum will not have intention to leave the cave).

 

[Amon Rudh]

It's all conjecture of course but if the 'consciousness' of the Ring made it leave Isildur and eventually find Smeagol, it could presumably have found The Witch King had that been a viable path? Would the Witch King have been further corrupted by the One Ring and try to keep it for himself? Interesting 🙂

 

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

What he actually said was "if he often uses the Ring to make himself invisible". Later, he says 'it was long since he had used it much: in the black darkness it was seldom needed. Certainly he had never "faded" '.

This applied to Bilbo too -- after returning from his adventures, his apparently used it very rarely. And as you mentioned, the toughness of hobbits applied to both, similar to the way the "toughness" of the Dwarves prevented them from fading.


No idea, really, although the Dwarves not only had their rings for thousands of years, but were apparently able to pass them down. So it's conceivable that hobbits might be able to do the same. However, we know the effects the rings had on the Dwarves; we don't know, aside from Gollum, who is something of a special case, the long-term effects on a "normal" hobbit.

The One Ring likely would have a different effect than the Great Rings. Even Gandalf said that Bilbo was the only one who went beyond mere "playing" with it and was still able to give it up. It's likely that Hobbits, or even Dwarves, wouldn't go giving it up if they kept it too too long.

 

[Olorgando]

I think the three main point have been raised:

1. Gollum didn't use the Ring much in the darkness under the Misty Mountains;
2. as a Hobbit, he entirely lacked the ambition of the Big Folk, especially (military) leaders among them;
3. and again as a Hobbit, he had an innate toughness that far exceeded that of any Big Folk.

So on the third point, I guess I'm disagreeing with BRD:

... and probably didn't have any level of strength on par with the likes of Aragorn or the kings of Numenor, ...

Though perhaps it boils down to a difference in terms: certainly in any common definition of strength, Gollum didn't stand a ghost of a chance against Aragorn. But toughness, resilience, endurance do not necessarily have anything to do with strength.

Thinking of the attack of the Nazgûl on Weathertop, Aragorn, being wounded by the Morgul Blade, might have succumbed to it much more rapidly than Frodo - who just barely didn't succumb.

Gandalf to Frodo early in chapter I "Many Meetings" of Book Two in "Fellowship" (p 222 in my 2002 HarperCollins hardcover):

"I have known strong warriors of the Big People who would quickly have been overcome by that splinter, which you bore for seventeen days."

 

[d4rk3lf]

It's all conjecture of course but if the 'consciousness' of the Ring made it leave Isildur and eventually find Smeagol, it could presumably have found The Witch King had that been a viable path? Would the Witch King have been further corrupted by yhe One Ring and try to keep it for himself? Interesting 🙂

Yes, the ring decision was to leave Isildur, it's decision was also to be found by someone, but it never had the power to decide who.. it was more of a random chance... it hoped to be found by some orc ,or anyone that desires power, because that orc would be soon revealed as a great leader, or something, therefore, Sauron servants could quickly hunt him down.
We can say that best option for the ring would be a creature with small initial power, but great ambition (majority of the world today ) . Gollum didn't do what ring wanted. Gollum never intendet to leave the cave. This is why ring abandoned him (again , in hope that some orc would find it).
At least, that's how I interpret it.

As for The Witch King... I think it would be perfectly safe with him (for Sauron).
Remember, Sauron holds the nine rings of man, and as long as he holds them, they are absolutely under his command.
After all, he DID sent Nazguls to hunt Frodo, right?
He wouldn't do that if there's even a minor possibility that Nazguls could use ring against him.

 

[Amon Rudh]

All good suggestions, although I was under the impression that the Nazgul always retained their rings but were controlled by Sauron albeit with more direction when he had the One Ring? Their previous corruption led to my suggestion that they might become an enemy of Sauron if they got control of the One. I'd think they might not be as loyal in those circumstances. You can see how people spend a lifetime studying these texts! 🙂
Re the consciousness of the Ring, if it could decide to go and detect the characters of 'people' near it, maybe it could decide when to go, eg when someone that could carry it came by? If anyone has info on where this might be disclosed in the texts I'd appreciate a pointer 👍 I agree about Gollum and not ever leaving the cave, although, had he kept it, perhaps the Nazgul would have eventually found him/it and gained help from Goblins in doing so.

 

[Ent]

personally, given all the evidence at hand, I think it's because that's the way the book was written.

lacked the ambition of the Big Folk,

with this one point being made, we remember particularly their lack of 'ambition for power' comes into play.
they had enough 'ambition' of a certain kind... like for second breakfast and onesies. they could simply care less about 'power and control.' Gando alludes to this with his 'especially (military) leaders' comment... but I think we can put a more pointed pin into it.. 'power and control'.

This makes, in many respects, the hobbits much like Ungoliant, Shelob, the dragons (in some ways) and others, who had absolutely no use for 'the rest of the world and their issues/problems', just wanting to satisfy themselves, and otherwise be left alone. (Bombadil is among them.)

The big difference is what shakes them out of their self-centeredness.

With Ungoliant, Shelob, dragons, etc. the only thing shaking them was personal gain.
With Bombadil, nothing could shake him out of his narrow little life.
With Bilbo, it was a little selfish as he didn't want to be considered timid... and did in the end desire to help the Dwarves, and have an adventure.
With Frodo, the need was the protection of other people.
With Sam, it was his love for his master and overarching attachment to his role of 'servant/protector'.

Then we get to gollum... to whom we can attribute nothing other than a desire for isolationism and self-preservation. Even worse than Bombadil, who was happy with just one person in his life, gollum wanted only what he could eat. He didn't even have the ambition of Ungoliant - (to consume all light) - a dragon - (self-gain as bribed and fed by Melkor, or to gain and sit on a hoard afterward), or a hobbit (to enjoy food and cheer).

In my view a GREAT point is made in that Sauron was reforming. He was beginning to reassert his will for power and control over the physical world again. For a time, he too thought the ring had been destroyed.

The ring no doubt began to exert its effort to seize opportunities as Sauron's initial strength grew again...the two being integrally and inseparably connected. Even though Sauron still wasn't aware of its existence, it doesn't mean his power wasn't active within it from the beginning - (which was the "nasty" power the ring had, though it no doubt had some power of its own, as the other rings did, especially the Elven rings.) The whole purpose of a ring was to "enhance" the power of the bearer in some way...meaning it had inherent power of its own. And Sauron also put a great deal of his own power into the One.

Anyway, somewhere in the above ramble are my thoughts about why gollum didn't fade. His world was the most dismal, freakishly alone existence imaginable, he was completely without desire other than surviving hidden, and he rarely used it, never using any of its inherent power other than to be invisibile so he could sustain himself as effortlessly as possible.

Indeed he was a 'miserable creature'. What a great place for the ring to hide itself until 'the appropriate time'.

A bigger question for me is, did the ring 'know' it was going to end up hidden under a mountain for countless years when it revealed itself to Deagol, or was it hoping for a more illustrious career until Sauron returned? Did it 'know' Smeagol would murder Deagol and end up forced to go in hiding? (we remember he was sneaking about, and 'driven out'... he did not go hide initially by his own choice.)

Ah, there's nothing like the Rings to build speculative and unanswerable questions.
That's what happens with pseudo-mythology and fantasy.

 

[Deimos]

...
With Bombadil, nothing could shake him out of his narrow little life.

This is totally off-topic (and Deimos never strays off-topic... no Precious, he does not) but, Friend Huorn, I'm going to have to request that you step outside with me where we can , ummm, more freely discuss (so to speak) that borderline libelous statement you made about my good friend, Tom.😈

 

[Ent]

that borderline libelous statement

My dear Deimos…
I should think it needed no explanation. It is, of course, based only on what we learn of him from LoTR, and no other extended information.
Let’s face it… anyone living hidden away with but one other person and a pony, prancing around singing to himself, his lady friend, and the rain and trees all the time, not involving himself in or caring about anything else going on anywhere else in the world, unless it just happens to come to him for some reason as he never goes to it… is leading a very narrow little life indeed.

The only thing making him more than an isolated little hermit is his lady friend…and his failure to care for the rest of the world is little better than the hobbits’ is, or even gollums. He lives entirely for his own self-interest as it is enhanced by his lady friend.

He’s also so fuddle-brained he can’t be trusted.

There’s little to nothing to suggest he’s worth many passing thoughts.
That said, for some reason Gandalf thinks its worth his time to go and ‘have such a chat with him as he has not had in many an age’ (or however it is he says that.)
Such a statement, frankly, leaves me quite baffled.

If there are intrinsic qualities, involvements, adventures, or cares and concerns Bombadil has for anyone other than himself, and his very minor aid to the hobbits in their need, do let me know.

If they are from sources external to LoTR that’s fine… I haven’t indulged in other Bombadil-related information yet as its just hardly worth the time given his insignificant role in the affairs of all that was important to the free-peoples of the world.

P.s. - I chose not to ‘step outside’ yet, as I feel others following this should also know why I think what I think. We can, now, find some existing thread on Bombadil… I’m sure there are some somewhere…. To continue the discussion if/as needed.

 

[Deimos]

My dear Deimos…
I should think it needed no explanation. It is, of course, based only on what we learn of him from LoTR, and no other extended information.
Let’s face it… anyone living hidden away with but one other person and a pony, prancing around singing to himself, his lady friend, and the rain and trees all the time, not involving himself in or caring about anything else going on anywhere else in the world, unless it just happens to come to him for some reason as he never goes to it… is leading a very narrow little life indeed.

The only thing making him more than an isolated little hermit is his lady friend…and his failure to care for the rest of the world is little better than the hobbits’ is, or even gollums. He lives entirely for his own self-interest as it is enhanced by his lady friend.

He’s also so fuddle-brained he can’t be trusted.

There’s little to nothing to suggest he’s worth many passing thoughts.
That said, for some reason Gandalf thinks its worth his time to go and ‘have such a chat with him as he has not had in many an age’ (or however it is he says that.)
Such a statement, frankly, leaves me quite baffled.

If there are intrinsic qualities, involvements, adventures, or cares and concerns Bombadil has for anyone other than himself, and his very minor aid to the hobbits in their need, do let me know.

If they are from sources external to LoTR that’s fine… I haven’t indulged in other Bombadil-related information yet as its just hardly worth the time given his insignificant role in the affairs of all that was important to the free-peoples of the world.

P.s. - I chose not to ‘step outside’ yet, as I feel others following this should also know why I think what I think. We can, now, find some existing thread on Bombadil… I’m sure there are some somewhere…. To continue the discussion if/as needed.

You need to read more about Bombadil.... there's much more to him than you think....**
So my invitation to a "discussion" al fresco still stands, Pilgrim. 😉

** Re-read the Old Forest chapter again, maybe maybe even a third or fourth time.
Also read the JRRT poem "Bombabdil Goes Boating".

 

[Ent]

ou need to read more about Bombadil.

What source(s) would you suggest, so I can best expand what is revealed about him?

Are there external sources revealing more of what he really did with and for the peoples of M-e leading to a broader perspective of the value and impact of his involvement outside his own interests?

I’ll read them before we engage and see if they change my opinion as to how he interacted with everyone and everything in the affairs of M-e.

 

[Deimos]

What source(s) would you suggest, so I can best expand what is revealed about him?

Are there external sources revealing more of what he really did with and for the peoples of M-e leading to a broader perspective of the value and impact of his involvement outside his own interests?

I’ll read them before we engage and see if they change my opinion as to how he interacted with everyone and everything in the affairs of M-e.

Sorry, post got crossed ...see ref above.
Rereading the chapter in FOTR is where I more fully apprehended Tom's character, and it took much more than a few re-reads for me to reach that point. The poem helps a lot too.
He's a complex character and, I guess, you finally either "get him" or you don't.

 

[Ent]

I’ll give it more work and see what falls out. Having done a good deal of reading and rereading the FoTR chapter and poem already, I’ll try to wipe the slate clean and give it a fresh perspective

I’ll look into your mentioned resource, and more I have on Bombadil external to the canon as well, to see if they help.

Added to my ‘To Do’ list.

 

[Deimos]

I’ll give it more work and see what falls out. Having done a good deal of reading and rereading the FoTR chapter and poem already, I’ll try to wipe the slate clean and give it a fresh perspective

I’ll look into your mentioned resource, and more I have on Bombadil external to the canon as well, to see if they help.

Added to my ‘To Do’ list.

The "Old Forest" chapter and the poem are pretty much the extant of my "resources" because they are 'ad fontem' sources of info, and not secondary sources (e.g. wikipedia). Maybe Shippey has written about Bombadil (he's a reliable secondary source) and there may be others.
But I came to my much greater appreciation of Tom only from FOTR and the poem. (As they say, YMMV)