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Children of Hurin Discussion Thread

Re: The Force That Through the Black Sword Drives Turambar OR Psycho(mis)diagnosing J

The last word I'll leave to John Ronald, from the Letters: "I object to the contemporary trend in criticism, with its excessive interest in the details of the lives of authors and artists. they only detract attention from an author's works, and end, as one now often sees, in becoming the main interest. But only one's Guardian Angel, or indeed God Himself, could unravel the real relationship between personal facts and an author's works. Not the author himself (though he knows more than any investigator), and certainly not so-called 'psychologists'."
Which is a main reason why I never read 'Letters' or much of HoME. The author's works are what deserves the attention, not what the author wrote to others about them.
 
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I just finished it. It's a good story and more fleshed out than the Silmarillion version, but obviously not too suspenseful for those of us who have read the other versions.

Spoiler alert:
Does anyone know why the part about Hurin confronting Thingol in Doriath was not included? It comes near the end of the story as I recall.
 
Well, imagine if that part was included.... think about it and let it sit for a while.
As a stand-alone story, it is a scene which would feel out of place to me. I like where the story ends.

The Narn in UT ends without Húrin & Morwen. A few extra paragraphs gives us the TCoH ending. And only a few paragraphs more would end the tale of Húrin.

But it's not his tale. It's not Narn I Húrin. It's the story of his chîn. I'm sure it was a carefully considered editorial decision, and CT probably went back and forth about it before making his choice.
 
Since what I am about to briefly discuss concerns The Children of Húrin, I thought it best to post this here:

The Tolkien Estate is what many Tolkienites love to hate. The Estate attempts to protect JRR's works from being "deflowered," warped, distorted, taken out of context and generally from being "mis-used" in any manner that would (in their mostly-correct opinion) subtract from Tolkien's literary greatness.

They have recently put up a "short form" of what is to be, later in the year, their complete and official website. Here it is: http://www.tolkienestate.com/.

Now you have a place to read their views on why it is that they are so closely protective of The Great Man. And I suppose you also now have a contact where you can vent your wrath at their simply not allowing people with slender writing talents to publish fan-fiction and other derivative third-party ventures at their (and Tolkien's) expense.

Barley

PS: After the first reading of COH — I prepared a place for it in my Tolkien shelf and put it down there, mayhap and maylike never to pick it up again. It sits there, gathering dust. But I bought it — nobody can say that Barliman Butterbur lacks loyalty, even at the cost of twenty Middle-earth quid! :eek:
 
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dancing in a grove of flowering hemlock trees

Not 'hemlock trees.' What Tolkien remembered from Holderness and put into his tale was the umbelliferous wildflower also known as cow-parsley or Queeen Anne's lace. Not by any stretch the unrelated giant conifer of North America (which doesn't produce flowers).
 
I've never heard of hemlock trees. This is the plant Tolkien was remembering (Conium maculatum). It can grow several feet tall, and is similar to many other white multi-headed flowers (and Tolkien said that the flowers were hemlock-like).

I add this to help those who don't know hemlock to better imagine the scene of Beren and Luthien (or JRRT and Edith).

Barley, I too have only read my copy of the book once; but I had read the story in the Sil more than once before already. I think it's one of JRRT's stories that would make a particularly good film. Are people ready for an unhappy ending though?
 
I would postulate that the end of WWII must have felt a lot like a lose lose situation to Tolkien specifically, as well as British in general.

while the war was over, a great portion of their cities were bombed out ruins.

Tolkien himself resisted the idea that his works were in any way an allegory. for WWI or WWII. I largely agree, in that his works were certainly a pleasure to him, and those other experiences were not.

it is more likely that those experiences lended a certain emotional color to his works.

as Tolkien loved Beowulf, and was aware that it was a surviving fragment of a body of literature, now extinct. must have filled his heart with angst. It is fair to say that Tolkien's works are an effort to heal that angst.

for us who are fans of Tolkien, we are aware that his own work is a fragment of a body of literature also lost to us, with his passing. A fact that also fills us with angst.

so the hope is that the publication of children of Hurin might lessen our collective angst and not deepen it. so there it is
 
I think so. The book illustrates "the long defeat" very well; and I am sure Tolkien, like many others, was doubly grieved; having lost so many good men in "The War to end All Wars" only to watch their sons go off to fight another only twenty years later. After that, the Cold War continued to rob the world of peace and Tolkien never saw the collapse of the Iron Curtain, which thawed relations in one direction; while in another, a new enemy was sharpening his sword. Gurthang lives on.
 
Personally I think the Children of Hurin was closer to the norse mythologies than any other of Tolkien's works. It seems to have the dark and bleak aspect that many of the Norse legends have with betrayal, trickery and death in abundence. If not for the less explored story of Fram and Scatha I might say that the tale of Hurin's childern was closest to Beowulf, in fact it may even still be the case.
 
Personally I think the Children of Hurin was closer to the norse mythologies than any other of Tolkien's works. It seems to have the dark and bleak aspect that many of the Norse legends have with betrayal, trickery and death in abundence. If not for the less explored story of Fram and Scatha I might say that the tale of Hurin's childern was closest to Beowulf, in fact it may even still be the case.
It's almost a point-for-point rewrite of the Finnish myth of Kullervo of which Tolkien also wrote his own version.

 
It's almost a point-for-point rewrite of the Finnish myth of Kullervo
I had heard about this a few times, and that was also the reason why I bought the 2014 German Kalevala retelling by Tilman Spreckelsen. (Unfortunately I don't know Finnish, but I guess that's a problem of quite a few people). Although I found the many stories and myths in it quite interesting, especially with regard to Tolkien, the chapter on Kullervo of all things was completely disappointing, although Spreckelsen certainly gives the impression of being a Tolkien connoisseur. So either this was miserably retold by Spreckelsen, or Tolkien has created something truly majestic from a rather banal original. In that case, 98% of the credit would go to Tolkien, and there is no question of "copying", as some critics accuse him of doing.
 
I've starting reading this now for the first time, as incorporated into/in parallel with my re-reading of The Silmarillion from shortly before the LotR movies were first coming out. I figured this discussion thread looked like a good spot to use.

So I hadn't really thought about it, but the time-scale for re-reading The Silmarillion is on the order of a couple decades, literally. Much to my surprise. It feels like the timing is good, because I have vague memories of the broad strokes of the narrative, but many details have been forgotten. My re-read of The Silmarillion has been purposely deliberate and slow; a page a day. With some of the supplimentary material I've incorporated at whatever speed I feel comfortable at. For some of the additions I've thrown in from THoME, it's been still very slow.

At first I thought I would replace The Children of Hurin entirely with the Turin chapter. However, I've continued with my deliberate pace through The Silmarillion partly out of habit, but also partly because I got the timing wrong. Even though I surveyed TCoH a short time ago, I struggled to line up the events and didn't realize until I started reading that I would be backtracking and re-visiting The Battle of Unnumbered Tears (with an adjusted emphasis on Turin's family and house).

I've been really impressed so far with The Children of Hurin, it feel like it starts off really strong. I vaguely remember how his life unfolds as one travesty after another, so some of the early material with set-up and foreshadowing are really pretty moving. And actually, there is a scene from the Amazon streaming series that reminded me of the fate of Earendil, and I've kind of been keeping an eye on the lineage. When I read the meeting of Turgon and Huor during battle in The Silmarillion, and the foreshadowing of what will arise from both their families, I remembered thanks to the streaming show jogging my memory. Yet the re-telling in The Children of Hurin felt more personal and intimate, so the same moment really hit me hard emotionally.

This has started off so good, I'm hopeful that I won't notice some of the criticisms I've read of it being choppy. Perhaps I haven't done myself any favors, because I dipped ahead for curiosities sake and have been reading the appendix specifically about how Christopher Tolkien organized this book's edition. This is kind of an outgrowth of my exposure to material from THoME throughout The Silmarillion re-read, where expanded narrative material comes hand-in-hand with "The Making of" aspects; I couldn't help it, I was genuinely interested. Maybe I wanted to prepare myself, too, so I could be more forgiving when the narrative gaps arrive?

I do feel a little unsettled by what Christopher Tolkien describes about details of his editorial approach to past works and to this work. He removed some material for The Unfinished Tales, which he put back in for this book. Yet he also did a little bit of trimming as well for Children...I really wish he had left some of those small passages in. It makes me think of a post I came across regarding The Description of the Island of Numenor, and how he trimmed stuff for The Unfinished Tales, and that material ended up in The Nature of Middle-earth (which some fans are saying they really like?!). Someone said of The Fall of Numenor book about the 2nd Age has the advantage of giving that essay without any of the trimming of materials, so someone doesn't have to flip back and forth between The Unfinished Tales and The Nature of Middle-earth. I'm wrestling with this; I've been getting used to and starting to like the notes and commentary, but I also feel like more of the fictional material should have retained in exchange for some notes and commentary that every once in a while seem a bit gratuitous. I don't want to overstate it; broadly, I have mixed feelings. I'm glad Christopher Tolkien has provided as much material as he has.
 
I started rereading TCoH last month, and I must say, I’m loving it more now than when I’d read it for the first time almost 8 years ago as a teenager. I had just recently read the Of Túrin Turambar chapter in Silm, and wanted to see how they compare. I quite like the expanded version much more as a whole narrative, though I think the two work well-enough together too. It’s fun to compare and contrast, to see what was mentioned in Silm, and what was expanded upon on CoH.

There was at least one particular detail I noticed distinctly different between the two that is not often addressed, and that was in regards to the aftermath upon the hill of Amon Rûdh after the Orcs had attacked and captured Túrin. In the SIL, it says that Mîm found Beleg lying wounded upon the hilltop, and was about to kill him when then Beleg stood up and took his sword back from Mîm and sent him running away in fear. In CoH, Beleg had been wounded and captured, then left tied to the ground as per Mîm’s request so he could kill him, but before he could, Andróg, who had been mortally wounded, came up behind Mîm and scared him off. Then he freed Beleg with his last strength.

I know there are plenty of changes and variations like that, between Silm and UT and CoH, but it’s still interesting to find them!😃
 
Fingon_Findekano said:
There was at least one particular detail I noticed distinctly different between the two that is not often addressed, and that was in regards to the aftermath upon the hill of Amon Rûdh after the Orcs had attacked and captured Túrin. In the SIL, it says that Mîm found Beleg lying wounded upon the hilltop, and was about to kill him when then Beleg stood up and took his sword back from Mîm and sent him running away in fear. In CoH, Beleg had been wounded and captured, then left tied to the ground as per Mîm’s request so he could kill him, but before he could, Andróg, who had been mortally wounded, came up behind Mîm and scared him off. Then he freed Beleg with his last strength.

The material surrounding Turin's time at Amon Rudh and the battle there is some of the most textually difficult, so it's not surprising that Christopher Tolkien found one solution in the published Silmarillion and a different one in CoH. The reason being that when Tolkien was working on a full version of the story in the late '50s, this was the point where his writing petered out and devolved into various outlines, notes, and ideas - many of them contradictory. (The remainder of the story as given in CoH comes from an earlier text, written in 1951).

Nice to see people reading The Children of Hurin. It's probably my favourite single piece of writing by Tolkien.
 
I'm a little surprised that Christopher Tolkien deviated from his Silmarillion with respect to certain details (not that I hold The Silmarillion as canon, as I don't), even granting that Tolkien had yet to "find out" what really happened. I guess the following statement is meant to generally speak to his decisions with respect to the long gap.

"Thus the text in this book that fills the long gap in the story of Unfinished Tales is derived from the same original materials as is the corresponding passage in The Silmarillion (pp. 204 - 215), but they are used for a different purpose in each case, and the new text with a better understanding of the labyrinth of drafts and notes and their sequence." Christopher Tolkien, commentary, The Children of Hurin, Appendix 2, The Composition of the Text

I like the Children of Hurin's version of the battle atop Amon Rûdh better, but it's interesting that in one of the introductory notes to the Tale (see Ælfwine and Dírhaval, The War of the Jewels), one of the internal sources (for the tale) is: "From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvir, and he was very old, but was the son of that Androg who was in the outlaw-band of Turin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh."

Christopher Tolkien comments: "Andvir son of Androg appears nowhere else. It is expressly stated in a plot-outline of this part of the Narn that Androg died in the battle on the summit of Amon Rudh
( . . . ). The wording here is plain. and can hardly be taken to mean that it was Andvir (also a member
of the outlaw-band) who alone survived."


Although in any case, in the second version of the introduction these Men are not named specifically, and the internal sources are stated more generally.
 
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