How to Translate "Skilled Hands" into Sindarin?

[ZehnWaters]

I'm trying to come up with a translation (Sindarin) of "Skilled hands". So far all I've got is Curucam or Curumab. Both sound VERY odd and we know the elves would never choose a name that isn't euphonious. HELP! Anyone else know a different word piece for "hand"?

 

[Ent]

Ent doesn't exist in this world, but... would it be different if you tried:
skilled OF hand... ?
skilled fingers... ?
skilled workman.. ?
or other such potential contrivances?

Or adept of hand/finger.. or expert or talented or practiced or educated...

i'll shut up now.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Ent doesn't exist in this world, but... would it be different if you tried:
skilled OF hand... ?
skilled fingers... ?
skilled workman.. ?
or other such potential contrivances?

Or adept of hand/finger.. or expert or talented or practiced or educated...

i'll shut up now.

Fingers might work. The rest are as unknown to me in Elvish as anything else.

 

[Ent]

i trust we have some genie-uses who can help you in the end. Just thoughts.
I have all this to look forward to as I introduce new characters into my 4th Age in my trilogy.
Still working on thoughts... (except for the introduction to Peregrin Took: My Road, which is done, though subject to change.) much yet to work out once I'm done editing.

But entering into the Age of Man, with a declining concern for many things, some things including naming conventions may find themselves declining as well.
It is ultimately a period of great change, initially for the good, soon filled with strifes of many kinds, followed by a rather dramatic downturn in the fares and affairs of the world indeed.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

"Maed" is supposed to mean skilled with hands.

 

[Ent]

Yes, I just found that too.

Also "curumo" means 'skilled-one' according to the dictionary thingy.. and from it comes Curunir, Saruman's name.

cambë - is a noun meaning hand or hollow of hand, palm.

má is the most common word for hand.

I think this is where Zehn came up with his 2 potentials above...

I wonder about Curumo-má or Curumo-cambë joining the two noun forms together as a name.

But I'm clueless about all the sideroads and missteps possible in a literalist approach.

 

[ZehnWaters]

"Maed" is supposed to mean skilled with hands.

Maed means "shapely" from what I can find. Hence "Maed+Russ" the combinations of Maitimo ("well-shaped one") and Russandol ("copper-top") (Maedhros's two Quenya names). Leastwise, I'm unsure where it is listed as meaning skilled with hands. Do you have a source?

Yes, I just found that too.

Also "curumo" means 'skilled-one' according to the dictionary thingy.. and from it comes Curunir, Saruman's name.

From what I can tell, Curumo is just the Quenya version of Curunír. Curu, by itself, simply means skilled or cunning hence Curufin ("skilled Finwë")

cambë - is a noun meaning hand or hollow of hand, palm.

má is the most common word for hand.

I think this is where Zehn came up with his 2 potentials above...

I wonder about Curumo-má or Curumo-cambë joining the two noun forms together as a name.

But I'm clueless about all the sideroads and missteps possible in a literalist approach.

Má appears to be Quenya. Curumá does sound nice, but it would be merging two different languages.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Maed means "shapely" from what I can find. Hence "Maed+Russ" the combinations of Maitimo ("well-shaped one") and Russandol ("copper-top") (Maedhros's two Quenya names). Leastwise, I'm unsure where it is listed as meaning skilled with hands. Do you have a source?

Parf edhellen

 

[ZehnWaters]

-paur -> -bor in Celebrimbor (Silver-fist) seems to be what I'm looking for as Tolkien describes this kind of fist as being one holding an implement, rather than a fist closed for a punch. Curubor looks okay but doesn't sound as nice as I'd like.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Parf edhellen
View attachment 25699

To be fair, Maedmab and Maedcam don't sound much better. Maedcam might mutate to Maecam, which sounds alright. Still not as cool as I'd like.

 

[ZehnWaters]

leptafinya apparently means "clever-fingered" in Quenya but I can't find a Sindarin translation.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Parf edhellen
View attachment 25699

Hm. Maed+dîr = Maedír (if I'm getting the change in vowel right). Skillful man. That would work.

 

[Elthir]

-paur -> -bor in Celebrimbor (Silver-fist) seems to be what I'm looking for as Tolkien describes this kind of fist as being one holding an implement, rather than a fist closed for a punch. Curubor looks okay but doesn't sound as nice as I'd like.

My guess (Gilruin where are you!) is that curu + paur would yield *Curuvor (primary stress on first syllable).

If it works all around (Grey-elven), it sounds Tolkieny to me anyway 🐾

 

[ZehnWaters]

My guess (Gilruin where are you!) is that curu + paur would yield *Curuvor (primary stress on first syllable).

If it works all around (Grey-elven), it sounds Tolkieny to me anyway 🐾

lol All of our Linguists are out! Curuvor does sound nice to me.

 

[Elthir]

Also, again if it is correct, someone could say: "Curuvor, please pass the miruvor."

And saying that is fun in my opinion

 

[Gilruin]

Gilruin where are you!

Here I am, late as always Not being a wizard unfortunately means that I don’t always arrive precisely when I mean to.

I'm trying to come up with a translation (Sindarin) of "Skilled hands". So far all I've got is Curucam or Curumab

Due to it’s phonological history, Sindarin has acquired a system called consonant mutation. Here curu would trigger soft mutation, which would result in cam → Curugam, mâb → Curuvab

Curuvor

The soft mutation result of p would be b: paur → Curubor. That’s the same as in Celebrimbor where the ancient vowel in kjeleperinā > cebren/celebrin- triggers the mutation

Also "curumo" means 'skilled-one' according to the dictionary thingy.. and from it comes Curunir, Saruman's name.

cambë - is a noun meaning hand or hollow of hand, palm.

má is the most common word for hand.

Here you are mixing up Sindarin and Quenya: cambë, má are Quenya words for ‘hand’, Curumo ‘skilled one’ is Saruman’s name in Quenya while Curunír ‘skilled man’ is his Sindarin name.

Maed means "shapely" from what I can find. Hence "Maed+Russ" the combinations of Maitimo ("well-shaped one") and Russandol ("copper-top") (Maedhros's two Quenya names). Leastwise, I'm unsure where it is listed as meaning skilled with hands. Do you have a source?

This is a bit convoluted:
maed¹, adj. ‘shapely’ < magiti ✧ PM/366; VT41/10 is the word that occurs in Maedros (whit this etymology without dh)
maed², adj. ‘handy, skillful, [N.] skilled’ ✧ PE17/147; VT47/6
They seem to be the same word etymologically, I think Paul Strack sums it up best in his entry for Q. maitë:

As a suffix in compounds, it has the sense “handed” as in Q. formaitë “righthanded” (Ety/PHOR) and Q. morimaitë “black-handed” (PE17/110). As prefix, however, it seems to have meant “shapely, well shaped” as in Maitimo “Well-shaped One” (PM/353). It seems likely the same would be true if the adjective were applied to an object, such as maitë macil “a well-shaped [skillfully made] sword”, as opposed to maitë ohtar “a handy/skillful warrior”.​

A compound would produce Curuvaed in this case.

leptafinya apparently means "clever-fingered" in Quenya but I can't find a Sindarin translation.

The Sindarin cognate of ★lepetā̆ > Q. lepta ‘fingered, thumbed’ would be lebed, ★phinjā > Q. finya would result in S. fain → Lebedfain. However usually fain in Sindarin means ‘white’ from ★spanjā, alternatively I would suggest maen → Lebedvaen. Alternatively with leber, leb- ‘finger’ we could form Leb(er)vaen, Leb(er)vaed. If you are ok with a more obscure word for ‘fist’, there is dond, which only appears in draft notes on Eldarin Hands, Fingers and Numerals from the late 1960s, but gives some nice sounding options: Curudhon, Maendon, Maedon.

Maed+dîr = Maedír (if I'm getting the change in vowel right). Skillful man.

This type of vowel shortening in Sindarin is not all that well understood and indeed Curunír retains a long vowel, but the overwhelming majority of compounds with dîr shorten the vowel all the way to i: Haldir, condir, Lindir... → Maedir.

 

[Ent]

Now you know why Ent doesn't dabble in this stuff...

 

[Elthir]

Here I am, late as always Not being a wizard unfortunately means that I don’t always arrive precisely when I mean to.

LOL!

The soft mutation result of p would be b: paur → Curubor. That’s the same as in Celebrimbor where the ancient vowel in kjeleperinā > cebren/celebrin- triggers the mutation

I knew that p lenites to b, but for some reason, I then mutated the b to v (b being between vowels sort of triggered a brain glitch I guess) -- sort of a: curu+paur > curubaur > curubor > (wait stop . . . nope too late) curuvor -- and now I guess I should add > curuvor

Why I "double mutated". . . I don't know 😄

Anyway, thanks!

 

[ZehnWaters]

Here I am, late as always Not being a wizard unfortunately means that I don’t always arrive precisely when I mean to.


Due to it’s phonological history, Sindarin has acquired a system called consonant mutation. Here curu would trigger soft mutation, which would result in cam → Curugam, mâb → Curuvab

The soft mutation result of p would be b: paur → Curubor. That’s the same as in Celebrimbor where the ancient vowel in kjeleperinā > cebren/celebrin- triggers the mutation

The Sindarin cognate of ★lepetā̆ > Q. lepta ‘fingered, thumbed’ would be lebed, ★phinjā > Q. finya would result in S. fain → Lebedfain. However usually fain in Sindarin means ‘white’ from ★spanjā, alternatively I would suggest maen → Lebedvaen. Alternatively with leber, leb- ‘finger’ we could form Leb(er)vaen, Leb(er)vaed. If you are ok with a more obscure word for ‘fist’, there is dond, which only appears in draft notes on Eldarin Hands, Fingers and Numerals from the late 1960s, but gives some nice sounding options: Curudhon, Maendon, Maedon.

This type of vowel shortening in Sindarin is not all that well understood and indeed Curunír retains a long vowel, but the overwhelming majority of compounds with dîr shorten the vowel all the way to i: Haldir, condir, Lindir... → Maedir.

I think using fingered would be too...odd. Lepta isn't a very pretty term. Still, would Curuleb(er) work? Curuleb does sound more euphonic than the others save Curudhon or Maedir (my other two choices). I may use Maedir as my elf is a Noldor who lived in Lothlorien after the destruction of Eregion and the name seems to match at least the choices of the Silvan elves there (see Haldir) (presumably his Noldorin name would have been more complicated).

This is a bit convoluted:
maed¹, adj. ‘shapely’ < magiti ✧ PM/366; VT41/10 is the word that occurs in Maedros (whit this etymology without dh)
maed², adj. ‘handy, skillful, [N.] skilled’ ✧ PE17/147; VT47/6
They seem to be the same word etymologically, I think Paul Strack sums it up best in his entry for Q. maitë:

As a suffix in compounds, it has the sense “handed” as in Q. formaitë “righthanded” (Ety/PHOR) and Q. morimaitë “black-handed” (PE17/110). As prefix, however, it seems to have meant “shapely, well shaped” as in Maitimo “Well-shaped One” (PM/353). It seems likely the same would be true if the adjective were applied to an object, such as maitë macil “a well-shaped [skillfully made] sword”, as opposed to maitë ohtar “a handy/skillful warrior”.​

A compound would produce Curuvaed in this case.

Well, Curuvaed would be "cunningy shapely". Maed would be substituted for Curu in this case. Maedgam? Maedvab?

 

[Lennart]

Hej all people.
on the asking of skilled hands,
Ive made a character in the one ring RPG, naming him Curumaite in Quenya. Camen in Sindarin. based on what i found on the internet concerning these 2 languages. id maybe look for a plural, im not sure thats included my naming him.
Does that work for you Zehn?

/Lennart