When does 🧙Gandalf's transition to Gandalf the White take place?

[Ent]

In my recent work, I've needed to do a bit of research into "Gandalf" lore, "Ring" lore, and "Staff" lore... among other things. This particular post will address Gandalf and his staff most particularly.
I'd like to lay out some thinking/findings so all of you can chew it to bits and refine my current understandings. Please bear with a little 'length' here.

What dirves this? The constant 'differences' we see in PJs (and so many others') distinctions between how Gandalf and his accessories appeared when he returned as 'the White', and my desire/need to have artwork about Gandalf done for 'the book.' (Artwork almost done now.)

Let's begin with a look at the very first time we 'see' him after his return.
... 'I see, I see now!' hissed Gimli. 'Look, Aragorn! Did I not warn you? There is the old man. All in dirty grey rags: that is why I could not see him at first.'
... Aragorn looked and beheld a bent figure moving slowly. It was not far away. It looked like an old beggar-man, waling wearily, leaning on a rough staff.
**
... They could not see his face: he was hooded, and above the hood he wore a wide-brimmed hat, so that all his features were overshadowed, except for the end of his nose and his grey beard.

OBSERVATIONS:
I started this study because all the 'depictions' we see made of Gandalf make him look very different than his appearance as 'Gandalf the Grey.'
But here's the deal to me: he looked very little different at all.

His staff was still just a 'rough staff', his clothes still grey, his beard still grey, he still looked like an old bent man leaning on a staff, just like always.
NO ONE evr comments, upon first seeing him, his different appearance, a new shiny staff, new clothes, or anything else making him 'look different'. The only difference we hear mentioed, is later when Pippin (or Merry?) remarks to a bit of a change in his nature/character.

It was only when he 'threw off his cloak' here and there, the 'white clothing shined forth' etc., revealing the difference when he wanted it to be so, anyone really knew of the change.

His staff became relevant as I cleared away the webs of deceit iimplanted by PJ, with Gandalf the Grey poking some gem into the top of his staff to 'make it light up' in Moria. There is NO gem in Gandalf's staff in Tolkien's lore I have been able to find. And, both his former staff, and new one (made for him by Galadriel) are simply 'rough staffs.' What makes them 'light up' is purely wizardly, requiring no 'gem' for assistance.

Later we do read about his 'flowing white hair'...I'm not quite sure when the transition occurs, but it seems once more people know he's now 'the White' and he has kicked Sauron out of the 'role', that subtle change may occur.

All that said, at the first meeting, it's true Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn suspect him to be 'Saruman'... but not because of his appearance. It's because they fully believe Gandalf is dead, and Saruman is masquerading as him (or just an old man) to surprise and trap them.

Gandalf was a humble 'servant' in the workings of Eru's plan. He did not go about 'adorned' in immaculate bright garb, with a shiny polished staff and gem, trying to look important or different. His role was never one of 'being at the fore'... but was always one of being 'behind the scenes helping the peoples of Middle-earth.' It would not be his choice to 'stand out'.

Galadriel obviously knew this as well, when she 'arrayed him and fashioned his new staff'...and of course he would have been there to consult about it.

I'm certain you've all thought through all this already. My question: am I amiss anywhere here? Is there some key to Gandalf's appearance and accessories after he becomes 'the White' I'm missing?

Depictions never make his beard long enough, nor his eyebrows bushy enough... that we know.
But what about the rest?

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Very great points. Gandalf's taking upon the role of 'the White' seems reminiscent of being given a new job. Saruman failed in his job as 'the White', and he was no longer fit to do this task. Hence, Gandalf's change in role is what is being depicted here, not a 'promotion'. Since Saruman was not competent/faithful with the task he was given, it was taken away from him and given to someone who was faithful (very scriptural basis here!). Gandalf had shown he could be entrusted with his task as 'the Grey', and his now becoming 'the White' is a representation of being given a new job to accomplish, a new task to complete as a faithful servant.

Sauron is masquerading as him (or just an old man) to surprise and trap them.

I think you mean Saruman here... The lidless eye can hardly look like an old man. 🤪

 

[Ent]

I think you mean Saruman here

Yep. Thanks, fixed. (At least it was right the first mention, just before that.)
And don't forget.. the 'lidless eye' isn't Sauron either. He has a real, physical body... though he can't 'change it up' any more.
(One wonders if he could shuck his armor and go around in a grey cloak with a staff though... no i don't think so. It was said he could no longer take on a fair appearance I believe. Or was that Melkor. Too much thinking... I'm becoming muddled.)

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

the 'lidless eye' isn't Sauron either.

Indeed, I was just Peter Jacksoning it up.

 

[Ent]

being given a new job to accomplish, a new task to complete as a faithful servant.

And also with increased powers. He was not able to overcome Saruman before, though he was always the wiser of the two.
Thus the need for his death, (the providence of the Balrog), to be sent back 'prepared' to not only 'be' the White, but to depose Saruman.

Yet even Saruman did not recognize Gandalf as being any different, until Gandalf CHOSE to reveal it to be so at 'the right time'.

 

[Ent]

Indeed, I was just Peter Jacksoning it up.

Oh good...! Literalist Ent strikes again..! sorry.
I fear the countless among the mob of believers think Sauron really is 'the eye' itself.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

I fear the countless among the mob of believers Sauron really is 'the eye' itself.

I fear you may be correct...

 

[Ent]

Anybody else with any comments on my original post above? Am I astray somehow?
thank you.

 

[Maeglin]

Nothing to add, as I think you pretty much covered it with your observations. I'm trying to wrack my brain for any other mentions that might have been missed. The closest I can think of, though, is that Gandalf "the White" was often talked about in contrast / in reference to his old appearance and the appearances of others. In particular, I think of how discolored and indeed filthy Saruman's robes and general appearance had become by the end in comparison to Gandalf's maintenance of propriety. This was no doubt intentional and symbolic of Saruman's fall from grace, but also served as a contrast to highlight Gandalf's new appearance, even though it didn't directly mention or compare it.

I did always find it strange that PJ made Gandalf look like some sort of angelic being in flowing robes of white with perfectly brushed hair, as I never imagined Gandalf the White that way, based on the descriptions in the book. I recall being a young lad and thinking it should be or would certainly make sense in that way (in my 11-year-old mind), but was always sort of intrigued by how humble he was kept as being "the Grey" in appearance and only "the White" in name. I actually kind of enjoyed it when PJ did "the White" in his over-the-top manner a few years later, then, because it fit what I had always wanted Gandalf "the White" to be.

But there you have it...the confirmation bias of a 15-year-old at the time. Now, two decades later and having just re-read the books precisely a year ago, I no longer enjoy PJs version and wish he would have stuck more to the letter of the text, but that might just be my crotchety old English teacher soul poking through with bias in the other direction.

 

[Ent]

But there you have it...the confirmation bias of a 15-year-old at the time. Now, two decades later and having just re-read the books precisely a year ago, I no longer enjoy PJs version and wish he would have stuck more to the letter of the text, but that might just be my crotchety old English teacher soul poking through with bias in the other direction.

We are all creatures of bias, aren't we..! And our biases change.

I always say 'I work hard to enjoy a thing for what it is, rather than what it is not.' Yet at the end of the day, when it's time for me to have a picture of Gandalf drawn for my Appendix to this book, you can rest assured, my biases leap to the fore and drive the artist in the direction I want Gandalf to go..! And that Gandalf is entirely 'textual' (as I interpret it), with nothing of the PJs of the world considered... except as examples of what NOT to do, as it turns out.

Yet I can return to PJs movies, and fully enjoy them for what they are... (frequrently laughing at things, I admit)..

So perhaps ws manage to age into 'situational bias'... but we are never free from it.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

There is NO gem in Gandalf's staff in Tolkien's lore I have been able to find.

Nor did he carry his pipe hooked into it. 🙄

Gandalf's "reveal" as the White carries symbolic associations difficult to translate into art *; here are some attempts:

* And of course that would also be true for films.

That last one recalls the early days of myth criticism in the 19th century, when Max Muller and his followers attempted to demonstrate that many folk and fairy tales were descended from "solar myths"; Cinderella, for instance, deriving from an original myth about the dawning sun triumphing over darkness, represented by her being covered with ashes. And so on.

The reality is that romance is dialectic in form; the emphasis is on the conflict between the hero and his enemy, therefore the attributes of each are in opposition, and posess positive and negative symbols respectively. The enemy is associated with darkness and winter, for example, so the hero will be associated with images of dawn and spring. As the critic Northrop Frye puts it:

If the hero of a romance returns from a quest disguised, flings off his beggars rags, and stands forth in the resplendent scarlet cloak of the prince, we do not have a theme which has necessarily descended from a solar myth; we have the literary device of displacement.

This oppositional technique Tolkien uses with "Gandalf the White", but also later, with Pippin, in "The Scouring of the Shire".

All that is perhaps peripheral to your OP, but may at least go some way towards explaining, if not excusing, some of PJ's use of the equivalent of a yellow highlighting marker; maybe this is a case of "a few words being worth a thousand pictures".

 

[Ent]

Gandalf's "reveal" as the White carries symbolic associations difficult to translate into art *; here are some attempts:

Indeed. This will be covered in my final writing on Gandalf, too.
In Tolkien's "Christian" world, it is covered by the Biblical verse: "Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart."

The contrast between Sauron and Gandalf, as has been noted elsewhere, and will be developed further, is not just the issue of 'good vs. evil', 'dark vs. light', etc. as the 'outward appearance' is constrained to try to show them through what we normally think of (view as) the 'outward apparance'... but stems from something entirely different, and is shown very differently as well.

The systemic push of the theatrical to visual depiction - dare I say 'to paint innermost character with color rather than substance' - reduces their own thinking, and most of their audience's, to the surface trappings provided, and reduces the mystical to the mundane (such as stones in staffs), because of their own limited thinking and understanding of 'portrayal', and that of those receiving their intended output.

Tolkien, and words, are not so limited... yet if we look closely, how things are interpreted from words are often also limited by the same elements. The only difference is the 'visual' of the screen, and the 'visual' able to be constructed mentally by the reipient.

When one says 'I can't visualize what you're talking about', where is the problem? With the speaker? Or the receiver. Therein lies a great gulf of possibilities, and even more differences.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

I wonder what inspiration this artist was drawing from. Dare I say it gives off very Transfiguration vibes?
A foreshadowing of sorts? Hmmm.... Relegating to the Halls of Speculation.

 

[Ent]

I wonder what inspiration this artist was drawing from

No inspiration here... just interpretation of the text.

... The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large rock. There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and his grey rags were flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli’s axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.
... ‘Mithrandir!’ he cried. ‘Mithrandir!’
... ‘Well met, I say to you again, Legolas!’ said the old man.
... They all gazed at him. His hair was white as snow in the sunshine; and gleaming white was his robe; the eyes under his deep brows were bright, piercing as the rays of the sun; power was in his hand. Between wonder, joy, and fear they stood and found no words to say.
... At last Aragorn stirred. ‘Gandalf!’ he said. ‘Beyond all hope you return to us in our need! What veil was over my sight? Gandalf!’ Gimli said nothing, but sank to his knees, shading his eyes.
... ‘Gandalf,’ the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.’
... He stepped down from the rock, and picking up his grey cloak wrapped it about him: it seemed as if the sun had been shining, but now was hid in cloud again. ‘Yes, you may still call me Gandalf,’ he said, and the voice was the voice of their old friend and guide. ‘Get up, my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. Be merry! We meet again. At the turn of the tide. The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned.’
... He laid his hand on Gimli’s head, and the Dwarf looked up and laughed suddenly. ‘Gandalf!’ he said. ‘But you are all in white!’
...‘Yes, I am white now,’ said Gandalf.

Consistent with my OP above, only when Gandalf CHOSE to reveal himself as different than he had been before, was he so revealed. And he chose to do so first (other than to Galadriel of course) to these three of the Fellowship.

Otherwise, they were as clueless as was Butterbur about messages left to be delivered...!


p.s. - that is ONE staff closer to correct... simply a 'rough staff'. But oh so much more.

 

[ZehnWaters]

Depictions never make his beard long enough, nor his eyebrows bushy enough... that we know.
But what about the rest?

I believe at one point Tolkien describes him putting back on his grey cloak as being like a light was veiled or something of that nature. It seems a purposeful action on Gandalf's part, then. The staff, then, is plain and rough, though Saruman seems to think they hold some power as he claims Gandalf wants to get all 5. Perhaps it is a focus for their powers? Like a Harry Potter wizard?

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

No inspiration here... just interpretation of the text.

... The old man was too quick for him. He sprang to his feet and leaped to the top of a large rock. There he stood, grown suddenly tall, towering above them. His hood and his grey rags were flung away. His white garments shone. He lifted up his staff, and Gimli’s axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground. The sword of Aragorn, stiff in his motionless hand, blazed with a sudden fire. Legolas gave a great shout and shot an arrow high into the air: it vanished in a flash of flame.
... ‘Mithrandir!’ he cried. ‘Mithrandir!’
... ‘Well met, I say to you again, Legolas!’ said the old man.
... They all gazed at him. His hair was white as snow in the sunshine; and gleaming white was his robe; the eyes under his deep brows were bright, piercing as the rays of the sun; power was in his hand. Between wonder, joy, and fear they stood and found no words to say.
... At last Aragorn stirred. ‘Gandalf!’ he said. ‘Beyond all hope you return to us in our need! What veil was over my sight? Gandalf!’ Gimli said nothing, but sank to his knees, shading his eyes.
... ‘Gandalf,’ the old man repeated, as if recalling from old memory a long disused word. ‘Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf.’
... He stepped down from the rock, and picking up his grey cloak wrapped it about him: it seemed as if the sun had been shining, but now was hid in cloud again. ‘Yes, you may still call me Gandalf,’ he said, and the voice was the voice of their old friend and guide. ‘Get up, my good Gimli! No blame to you, and no harm done to me. Indeed my friends, none of you have any weapon that could hurt me. Be merry! We meet again. At the turn of the tide. The great storm is coming, but the tide has turned.’
... He laid his hand on Gimli’s head, and the Dwarf looked up and laughed suddenly. ‘Gandalf!’ he said. ‘But you are all in white!’
...‘Yes, I am white now,’ said Gandalf.

Consistent with my OP above, only when Gandalf CHOSE to reveal himself as different than he had been before, was he so revealed. And he chose to do so first (other than to Galadriel of course) to these three of the Fellowship.

Otherwise, they were as clueless as was Butterbur about messages left to be delivered...!


p.s. - that is ONE staff closer to correct... simply a 'rough staff'. But oh so much more.

With the art and text side by side, it really does seem Transfiguration-like. Very interesting. Laboring over every word, Tolkien was. You have to wonder 🤔...

 

[Ent]

Perhaps it is a focus for their powers?

It can be likened to the mystery of the Mirror of Galadriel. How it is, we do not know. Yet.... it is.

 

[Ent]

With the art and text side by side, it really does seem Transfiguration-like.

I certainly agree visually. That said, I struggle to engage with it fully, as we also read Gandalf says very shortly after, "You could almost say I AM Saruman, or Saruman as he should have been."

Saruman, to the best of our knowledge, had no such 'death and return'. Though clearly he had been granted the same 'gift of power' as Gandalf has now been given, to be termed 'the White'. A gift Saruman later forsook, to become 'of many colors'... there is depth to that phrase.

Melkor had "a part of the gifts of all the others". Saruman wanted "a part of the gifts of all the colors". Both the HAVINGNESS (Melkor) and the DESIRE (Saruman) leads to destruction based on CHOICE.

 

[Ent]

p.s. @Glorfindel Goldtress - this is exactly why Galadriel says to Frodo "...gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting. YOU BEGIN TO SEE WITH A KEEN EYE. I do not denyt that my heart has greatly desired to ask what you offer...' &c.

Finalizing with 'I pass the test.' But would she have, if she had actually held the ring? If she had born it as long as Bilbo, or even Frodo? Or even Sam?

I think not. The very desire of her heart was close to corrupting her already. "For many long years I have pondered what I might do, should the Great Ring come into my hands..." her peril is great. She does not pass without extreme difficulty. Temptation is always close at hand... far closer than we know.

Gandalf was the wisest of the Maiar. His rejection of the offer of the ring by Frodo is immediate, and definitive. Does that mean he had not 'pondered it' ? We do not know. It may mean his strong reaction is due to his wisdom and knowing he muist give not a moment's thought to it.

Galadriel on the other hand, even at the end, is still 'pondering' the possibility in that final battle... probably a very good thing for her it was the last none and the ring was destroyed. Who knows if she could have endured another such offer and episode.

She is set here in contrast with Saruman...she offered the ring of her heart's desire with its false but apparently desirable promises regarding what she might be able to do... and great attraction...CHOOSING to reject it .
Saruman offered by Gandalf the grace of repentance - a way of escape from his earlier faillures..TRUE promises held out for his taking, and his redemption.

One of them chose wisely.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

"For many long years I have pondered what I might do, should the Great Ring come into my hands..." her peril is great. She does not pass without extreme difficulty.

Indeed, though I believe she had repeatedly confronted this temptation head on over those "many long years". Yes she desired it, but she also turned from it (with extreme difficulty). And each time she faced it in her mind, she bore down with the weight of the temptation. Having established herself, grounded in the truth of knowing how corrupt the Ring is, she was able to stand the test. Repeated iterations of what she knew to be true and founded her conclusions 'saved' her, allowing her to pass.

Temptation is always close at hand... far closer than we know.

A lesson for all of us in life! 'Sin is crouching at the door', wanting to have its way...