Some sources claim in some First Age wars there weren't 🧌trolls, 🐺wargs

[Turin_Turambar]

There has been a lot of discussion about these issues both in this forum and on other internet platforms. Quora's question and answer bot claims that there are no trolls and wargs in dagor-nuin-giliath and dagor aglareb. According to bot source Wargs first appeared in the Dragor Bragollach war, and trolls first appeared in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad war. In most third age wars there were trolls and wargs. How accurate is this information? Aren't there trolls and wargs in Dagor-Nuin-Giliath and Dagor Aglareb, which took place in the First Age of Middle Earth, and is it because they have larger armies that they are known as larger than the Third Age wars?

 

[Elthir]

"Aren't there trolls and wargs in Dagor-Nuin-Giliath and Dagor Aglareb, which took place in the First Age of Middle Earth, . . ."

Quenta Silmarillion (pre-1950s) Battle Under The Stars​

"There a host of Orcs, aroused by the light of the burning ships. . ."*

And here, Feanor pursues the Orcs: "but the Balrogs in the rearguard of Morgoth turned suddenly to bay."

So there were Balrogs in the rearguard? But see below.

The Grey Annals (early 1950s) Battle Under The Stars​

"But the host of Melkor, orcs and werewolves, came through the passes of Eryd-wethrin and assailed Feanor on a sudden. . ."

Now we have "werewolves" and I notice how the wording changes to the "host of Melkor" (from QS "a host of Orcs"). Here again Feanor pursues the orcs, and the "servants of Morgoth" turn to bay, "and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them."

This is better in my opinion, as the Balrogs now come from Angband.

The Silmarillion, Christopher Tolkien (1977, based on JRRT's texts)​

"But the host of Morgoth, aroused by the tumult of Lammoth and the light of the burning at Losgar, came through the passes of Ered Wethrin. . ."

Werewolves were not taken up by Christopher Tolkien from The Grey Annals, and we read that the Orcs fled, and that Feanor pressed on behind the remnants of the Orcs. And next, the "servants of Morgoth" turn to bay, and Balrogs issue from Angband.

__________

*In a later opening to this section of QS, Tolkien wrote: "There a host of Orcs, aroused by the tumult of Lammoth and the light of the burning of Losgar, came down upon them. . ."

So, what can we conclude, from this much, at least?

That I must nap.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Quenta Silmarillion (pre-1950s) Battle Under The Stars​

"There a host of Orcs, aroused by the light of the burning ships. . ."*

And here, Feanor pursues the Orcs: "but the Balrogs in the rearguard of Morgoth turned suddenly to bay."

So there were Balrogs in the rearguard? But see below.

The Grey Annals (early 1950s) Battle Under The Stars​

"But the host of Melkor, orcs and werewolves, came through the passes of Eryd-wethrin and assailed Feanor on a sudden. . ."

Now we have "werewolves" and I notice how the wording changes to the "host of Melkor" (from QS "a host of Orcs"). Here again Feanor pursues the orcs, and the "servants of Morgoth" turn to bay, "and there issued from Angband Balrogs to aid them."

This is better in my opinion, as the Balrogs now come from Angband.

The Silmarillion, Christopher Tolkien (1977, based on JRRT's texts)​

"But the host of Morgoth, aroused by the tumult of Lammoth and the light of the burning at Losgar, came through the passes of Ered Wethrin. . ."

Werewolves were not taken up by Christopher Tolkien from The Grey Annals, and we read that the Orcs fled, and that Feanor pressed on behind the remnants of the Orcs. And next, the "servants of Morgoth" turn to bay, and Balrogs issue from Angband.

__________

*In a later opening to this section of QS, Tolkien wrote: "There a host of Orcs, aroused by the tumult of Lammoth and the light of the burning of Losgar, came down upon them. . ."

So, what can we conclude, from this much, at least?

That I must nap.

I think you misunderstood the issue. I was talking about wargs, not werewolves.

 

[Elthir]

I think you misunderstood the issue. I was talking about wargs, not werewolves.

I purposely chose to give you accurate descriptions (based on your question above: How accurate is this information?) of any bad guys noted as being present at The Battle Under The Stars -- according to various accounts.

Then I rested on something warm.

So, unless there's something arguably relevant that I've forgotten to include (perfectly possible),
one can compare what I've quoted above (or described) from Tolkien himself, to whatever anyone is saying on the web somewhere. . .

. . . and thus form an opinion about whether or not something on the web is accurate.

I can also add the very accurate, possibly pertinent information about Trolls (at least) published by Tolkien himself in Appendix F, The Return of the King: " . . . Sindarin Torog. In their beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron made use of them, teaching them what little they could learn and increasing their wits with wickedness."

This description relates that Trolls at least existed very early in Middle-earth, though this much is obviously not helpful as to what part they may or may not have played in a given battle.

Again, it's just information from the Master (JRRT) himself.

🐾

 

[Turin_Turambar]

I purposely chose to give you accurate descriptions (based on your question above: How accurate is this information?) of any bad guys noted as being present at The Battle Under The Stars -- according to various accounts.

Then I rested on something warm.

So, unless there's something arguably relevant that I've forgotten to include (perfectly possible),
one can compare what I've quoted above (or described) from Tolkien himself, to whatever anyone is saying on the web somewhere. . .

. . . and thus form an opinion about whether or not something on the web is accurate.

I can also add the very accurate, possibly pertinent information about Trolls (at least) published by Tolkien himself in Appendix F, The Return of the King: " . . . Sindarin Torog. In their beginning far back in the twilight of the Elder Days, these were creatures of dull and lumpish nature and had no more language than beasts. But Sauron made use of them, teaching them what little they could learn and increasing their wits with wickedness."

This description relates that Trolls at least existed very early in Middle-earth, though this much is obviously not helpful as to what part they may or may not have played in a given battle.

Again, it's just information from the Master (JRRT) himself.

🐾

Trolls already existed in the First Age. However, this text about trolls in Twilight of the Elder Days does not indicate that they existed early the First Age. In wars such as Nirnaeth Arnoediad and War of Wrath are in Elder Days.

Trolls

Trolls were a race of large humanoid creatures of limited intellect. They were strong and vicious, but some of them could not endure sunlight and turned to stone...

tolkiengateway.net

"The participation of Trolls in the War of the Jewels was not recorded in the tales of the Elder Days until F.A. 472, when the Battle of Unnumbered Tears took place."
As can be understood from the article I quoted on this site, it is logical to assume that the first war they fought was the nirnaeth arnoediad, since the trolls have no records before the nirnaeth arnoediad.

 

[Elthir]

Trolls already existed in the First Age. However, this text about trolls in Twilight of the Elder Days does not indicate that they existed early the First Age. In wars such as Nirnaeth Arnoediad and War of Wrath are in Elder Days.

Looking again at what I posted above: "This description relates that Trolls at least existed very early in Middle-earth, though this much* is obviously not helpful as to what part they may or may not have played in a given battle."

Meaning very early in Middle-earth's history as a whole. How early exactly? It doesn't say of course.

I can add, for possible sake of interest, that elsewhere Tolkien once noted (Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, text IX): "The Elves would have classed the creatures called 'trolls' (in The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings) as Orcs -- in character and origin -- but they were larger and slower. It would seem evident that they were corruptions of primitive human types."

Interpret as you like

Keeping in mind however, that if Tolkien were indeed to make this "unpublished" idea a reality within Middle-earth, we have more than one timeline for the Awakening of Men!

*this much = "this text by itself" meaning, this text alone is obviously not helpful as to what part Trolls may or may not have played in a given battle (any battle) in the Elder Days.

As can be understood from the article I quoted on this site, it is logical to assume that the first war they fought was the nirnaeth arnoediad, since the trolls have no records before the nirnaeth arnoediad.

Neither of my posts above have anything to do with this battle though (Unnumbered Tears).
My first post was about The Battle Under the Stars, and I didn't even get to The Glorious Battle before I napped -- I refer you back to my first response, where I only quoted your post concerning these two battles.

I'm aware of the Trolls in Unnumbered Tears -- and indeed I recall doing a little (external) textual research with respect to Húrin's exploits in this battle.

'Cause his prowess here was quite amazing

 

[Elthir]

I'm aware of the Trolls in Unnumbered Tears -- and indeed I recall doing a little (external) textual research with respect to Húrin's exploits in this battle.

Found it. . . way back in 2010 (Jan 18th), at another forum, under my older name Galin (who?).
The topic title was Húrin's superhuman abilities. Back when I was younger, I wrote (in part):

__________

'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: 'Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him off to Angband with mockery.' The Silmarillion

In The Grey Annals it was said concerning Húrin that: 'Then he cast aside his shield and wielded his axe two-handed; and it is sung that in that last stand he himself slew an hundred of the Orcs. But they took him alive at last...' JRRT

Similarly one hundred Orcs in Tolkien's earlier Quenta Silmarillion (HME V).

__________

But today I'll add that 100 orcs (no trolls yet) is stated in the Qenta of 1930 too. So basically Tolkien had Húrin slay 100 orcs (at this battle) in the 1930 Qenta Noldorinwa, and again in the Quenta Silmarillion of the 1930s, and yet again in The Grey Annals of the early 1950s. . .

. . . and the Troll-guard comes into play in the Narn version, which Christopher Tolkien used for his chapter in the 1977 Silmarillion (and for his Children of Húrin as well).

And yes, I know no one asked

But there it is!

 

[Turin_Turambar]

Found it. . . way back in 2010 (Jan 18th), at another forum, under my older name Galin (who?).
The topic title was Húrin's superhuman abilities. Back when I was younger, I wrote (in part):

__________

'Last of all, Húrin stood alone. Then he cast aside his shield, and wielded an axe two-handed; and it is sung that the axe smoked in the black blood of the troll-guard of Gothmog until it withered, and each time that he slew Húrin cried: 'Aurë entuluva! Day shall come again!' Seventy times he uttered that cry; but they took him at last alive, by the command of Morgoth, for the Orcs grappled him with their hands, which clung to him still though he hewed off their arms; and ever their numbers were renewed, until at last he fell buried beneath them. Then Gothmog bound him and dragged him off to Angband with mockery.' The Silmarillion

In The Grey Annals it was said concerning Húrin that: 'Then he cast aside his shield and wielded his axe two-handed; and it is sung that in that last stand he himself slew an hundred of the Orcs. But they took him alive at last...' JRRT

Similarly one hundred Orcs in Tolkien's earlier Quenta Silmarillion (HME V).

__________

But today I'll add that 100 orcs (no trolls yet) is stated in the Qenta of 1930 too. So basically Tolkien had Húrin slay 100 orcs (at this battle) in the 1930 Qenta Noldorinwa, and again in the Quenta Silmarillion of the 1930s, and yet again in The Grey Annals of the early 1950s. . .

. . . and the Troll-guard comes into play in the Narn version, which Christopher Tolkien used for his chapter in the 1977 Silmarillion (and for his Children of Húrin as well).

And yes, I know no one asked

But there it is!

It's a really nice quote. Hurin throwing his shield and using her ax with both hands to kill the troll and the orc that came in front of his is definitely one of the most epic war stories of Middle Earth.