What are you writing about now?

[david_wendelken]

To be fair to Snape, he stopped doing evil and put his life on the line for years to help the good guys. Plus, at least in the films, there are enough glimpses of him being awkward and mistreated by some of the "good guys" to build some sympathy for him.

Whereas, Maeglin caved in and betrayed his people. He had a rough childhood, but he had it good in Gondolin, broke the rules that kept the place safe, and betrayed his people out of fear. Not a lot of room for sympathy compared to Snape. Especially when elves know what happens to them when they die, compared to humans, who don't.

Compare Maeglin to Odette Sansom, a courier for the Allied spy networks in France during WWII. She was captured due to a betrayal. Tortured by the Gestapo.
"The only thing she told them was a lie. Rather than admit she was a courier, she said she was the circuit leader to save the life of the actual circuit leader Peter Churchill who’d also been arrested. She said Churchill was her husband and also the nephew of Prime Minister Winston Churchill (he wasn’t) who knew nothing of her operations in the hope it would save his life (it did)."
"Over the next two months Sansom was starved and tortured 14 times, burned with a hot poker and had all her toenails pulled out. If she had spoken, others would have died. She did not speak, other than in defiance. In June 1943 she was condemned to die on two counts, to which she replied, 'you will have to make up your mind on what count I am to be executed, because I can only die once.' ”

Now, that's a person I can admire! She survived the death camp she was sent to, by the way, and lived to age 82.

 

[Ent]

kept the place safe, and betrayed his people out of fear.

Good read, and I agree with most all of it.
Regarding the one point above, I'm currently under the impression Maeglin always had aspirations to rule Gondolin, which is why he kind of made his mother take him there to begin with.

When it became clear he was not going to be givien the rule, he became indignant. Not being able to get over his conceit and anger, he betrayed his people. I don't think there was much fear involved... again, as far as I've been able to read so far.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Good read, and I agree with most all of it.
Regarding the one point above, I'm currently under the impression Maeglin always had aspirations to rule Gondolin, which is why he kind of made his mother take him there to begin with.

I can't make much sense of this. He was a child when he left Nan Elmoth. He did convince Aredhel to finally leave, but I doubt he has had those fantasies in mind since back then. He was a renowned smith. Perhaps he wanted more room to grow his skills, considering how most Noldor are known to be remarkable craftsmen?

 

[WatcherWraith]

I recently did some work on my story: working my theme into each character so they have their own answers for it.

"Is preserving your moral integrity more important than your life or the lives of your loved ones?"

Amandil's response to this is actually somewhat laid out in The Silmarillion. He says, "...there is but one loyalty from which no man can be absolved in heart for any cause." Here, he is referencing the Valar, for this is the conversation between himself and Elendil when Amandil is preparing to leave Númenor and sail west, breaking the Ban and leaving his king. He further says, "But it is for mercy upon Men and their deliverance from Sauron the Deceiver that I would plead, since some at least have remained faithful. And as for the Ban, I will suffer in myself the penalty, lest all my people should become guilty." Yet no help will come from the Valar.

To any who ask, Amandil would declare his moral integrity to be bound in service to the Valar, and he will never abandon it. But when his people are under threat, when no prayer of his is granted and the Faithful seem abandoned, it is to his people he will turn. It is to them and to their safety he will devote himself. In the end, Amandil will abandon the Valar.

But this is not the end, nor is it even the great wrong done by the Númenóreans who were among the King's Men. Amandil does not turn his back on the Valar, he does not declare himself against them. Instead, his loyalties are more plainly seen as always having been in the service of his people and for their protection. Amandil will always honor the Valar, but as times get harder and harder, he will stop looking to them for help, and see them as far off and not very concerned with his fate or the fate of his people.

Is this the right conclusion to make? It's a good question. Amandil is not meant to show which is the right decision, however. He is meant to follow what I see to be his nature. He exemplifies his own answer to the question posed by my theme. I shall enjoy exploring his and the other characters' answers over time.

 

[Ent]

I can't make much sense of this

I will review the snippets I’ve looked into on Maeglin in more depth and sort it out.
For now, I’ll stay focused on getting Shape in line.

 

[david_wendelken]

I don't really understand why ANY elf would EXPECT to become king of an existing elven kingdom. After all, elven kings, unlike human ones, don't die of old age. The above fact would explain why splinter groups of elves would branch out and form new kingdoms so they could have their own turn to be in charge. And that's alluded to by Tolkien, even young Galadriel wanted lands of her own to rule.

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

I don't really understand why ANY elf would EXPECT to become king of an existing elven kingdom. After all, elven kings, unlike human ones, don't die of old age. The above fact would explain why splinter groups of elves would branch out and form new kingdoms so they could have their own turn to be in charge. And that's alluded to by Tolkien, even young Galadriel wanted lands of her own to rule.

I thought elven kings might pass on the crown to an heir after a while, when they want to move on to other things. Ruling a people is a great responsibility, after all, which would take up a lot of time and energy. And most elves (especially Noldor), have some art of their own they would want to pursue.

 

[Will Whitfoot]

I've been working with an illustrator for over a year now on a children's book entitled OTTERHEAD. I wrote the story in the form of verse, and Gustav Carlson (who has created a graphic novel series TOURIST UNKNOWN) has done the 28 pages of illustration. We are finally ready to go to print, and have submitted a final pdf to the printer for sample proofs before going for the full print run. It is similar in some ways to Dr. Seuss THE LORAX and addresses climate change and extinction in a story format. It is very much embedded in the omniverse. For those unfamiliar, standard multiverse theory envisages a multiplicity of separate and unconnected alternate universes. Omniversal theory has all those timelines connected in such a way that, under certain circumstances, we can move between them. The introduction page (guide for parents) is as follows:

OTTERHEAD
A Children’s story book,
Story by Tom Maringer, Illustration by Gustav Carlson

Greetings ye Travellers of Time and Space. Well met are we in this special place. No chance meeting is this! One might even say, you have been chosen. So take your rest a while and you shall see, a vision of both long ago and yet to be. For a closed book has little to say, but when pages turn, whole worlds may open!
Please excuse my strange appearance and allow me to introduce myself as the chief assistant to the omniversal time-space being known colloquially in this cluster of timelines as Santa. Yes, in sooth, I am here to tell ye that the Santas are real! They are often dismissed lightly on timelines that are relatively stable, but they may voluntarily shoulder great responsibility when serving timelines that have fallen badly astray. For there are a great many timelines in the Omniverse, so many that their true number is unknown even to those of us whose work concerns such things. The cadre of the Santas goes forth to recalibrate those that have fallen far from the optimal path to future enlightenment due to war, famine, disease, or environmental catastrophe.
You see, it has become clear to us that the future of this planet as a home to creatures of will and dignity encompasses not just a thousand or tens of thousands, but many millions and yes, even billions of years. It is the task of the Santas and their myriad elven helpers to foster the virtues of Goodness, Truth, and Beauty in every time, in every space, and in every possible way.
The tale you are about to witness begins in a far future, on a timeline in which the world has catastrophically lost many plants and animals, including the otters. Now the loss of a single species or genus may not seem to be of great consequence, for many extinctions have occurred in the past and yet the world lives on. But we who inhabit the omniverse and traverse the spaces between dimensions are aware that in the greatest of the future timelines of this world, it is the otters who eventually arise as the next civilized creature, after the inevitable failure of the hominid human species to get along with each other. It is the mustelid family that ultimately proves able to bring Gaia to a full flowering of sustainable culture and harmony. But, if the otters go extinct before that can happen, then those timelines eventually fall into ruin. Then, only the untiring efforts of the Santas may keep them moving forward. Our story involves one such timeline wherein some humans still manage to survive, but the environment is difficult and persistent toxins from centuries of fossil fuels and decaying nuclear plants cause much disease, especially among the young people. One such little girl is the central character of our tale.
The Santas have great power to do good, but even such as they have certain rules that must be followed. But occasionally, as we may see, in the face of sincerity that is pure and unsullied, even Santa’s heart may allow rules to be bent a little. But now…. Please allow me to tell this story in the form of verse, for since ancient times as well as in the far future, all the best stories have been, and will continue to be, told in this way.

 

[david_wendelken]

I thought elven kings might pass on the crown to an heir after a while, when they want to move on to other things. Ruling a people is a great responsibility, after all, which would take up a lot of time and energy. And most elves (especially Noldor), have some art of their own they would want to pursue.

I can't think of a single example of this motivation in all of Tolkien's works. Have I missed one?

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

I can't make much sense of this. He was a child when he left Nan Elmoth. He did convince Aredhel to finally leave, but I doubt he has had those fantasies in mind since back then. He was a renowned smith. Perhaps he wanted more room to grow his skills, considering how most Noldor are known to be remarkable craftsmen?

I made a response to this here:

Maeglin vs Snape

Of course. I'm on the same boat as you, being busy with life and school.

thetolkien.forum

 

[david_wendelken]

@Will Whitfoot , looks like fun story idea with lots of possibilities for sequels!

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

I can't think of a single example of this motivation in all of Tolkien's works. Have I missed one?

It's my own reasoning. I can't remember reading it. But it does make sense to me.

It reminds me of what happens in elven marriage (if I recall correctly). After the couple have raised children, and have lived together for a while, they may go their own ways and do their own things. They are still married, but they do not mind living separately during this time.

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

I can't think of a single example of this motivation in all of Tolkien's works. Have I missed one?

Finrod throwing down the crown of Nargothrond might count. But this was an unusual case, since his people were not willing to follow him anymore. He ended up passing the crown to Orodreth to govern in his stead.
From what Edrahil said as he picked up the crown, ostensibly Orodreth was meant to be a steward until Finrod's return, but nobody really expected Finrod to return, given the nature of his quest. And Edrahil was faithful, so of course he would want Finrod to choose a steward. But whether the people of Nargothrond would have accepted Finrod had he come back alive is a matter for speculation (especially if they were still under the influence of Celegorm and Curufin).

 

[Will Whitfoot]

@Will Whitfoot , looks like fun story idea with lots of possibilities for sequels!

Indeed! Already on it. In the Otterworld circa 135,000 years in the future, in the NEXT interglacial warm period (i.e. after global warning has run its disastrous 500 year course and the world falls inevitably into a 120,000 yearlong ice age.) The mustelids have formed the core of a trans-species collective, including cetaceans, pinnipeds, ursids, cervids, equids, some canids, some felids, and many avians. Among the intellectual pursuits of their academia is paleoprimatology, the study of the remains of human civilization. Now 135,000 years is a very long time, and much has been lost, but much of their science and mechanics is based on what they have found, and they seek to understand what occurred in those ancient times. Still, they struggle to understand WHY the humans destroyed themselves. Some believe it was inadvertent, some believe it was intentional. The debate rages in academic circles with the badgers saying that it is too dangerous to know too much and the ferrets of a much more curious nature. The story is in the form of a report to the institute on a particular expedition into the dry interior, and a find that changes everything they think and know about humans, and themselves. Somewhat after the fashion of an Edgar Rice Burroughs story.

 

[david_wendelken]

Finrod throwing down the crown of Nargothrond might count. But this was an unusual case, since his people were not willing to follow him anymore. He ended up passing the crown to Orodreth to govern in his stead.
From what Edrahil said as he picked up the crown, ostensibly Orodreth was meant to be a steward until Finrod's return, but nobody really expected Finrod to return, given the nature of his quest. And Edrahil was faithful, so of course he would want Finrod to choose a steward. But whether the people of Nargothrond would have accepted Finrod had he come back alive is a matter for speculation (especially if they were still under the influence of Celegorm and Curufin).

Finrod's case doesn't apply. He didn't give up his crown because he was bored and had more fun things to do. He had a debt of honour to repay and all but 10 people refused to aid him.

The only other relinquishment of a crown that I remember was when Feanor's eldest, Maedhros, gave the high kingship to Fingon. Again, not boredom and a desire to pursue other activities. Rather, it was a recognition of tremendous heroism in rescuing him from the Morgoth, and an attempt to heal the breach that Feanor had caused with his brothers and their families. It was political to the core, because the elves needed a united front to beat the Morgoth.

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

Finrod's case doesn't apply. He didn't give up his crown because he was bored and had more fun things to do. He had a debt of honour to repay and all but 10 people refused to aid him.

The only other relinquishment of a crown that I remember was when Feanor's eldest, Maedhros, gave the high kingship to Fingon. Again, not boredom and a desire to pursue other activities. Rather, it was a recognition of tremendous heroism in rescuing him from the Morgoth, and an attempt to heal the breach that Feanor had caused with his brothers and their families. It was political to the core, because the elves needed a united front to beat the Morgoth.

As I said, my main reasoning was that it made sense to me. Otherwise, what would be the point of having heirs at all in Valinor? Fëanor was worried about Fingolfin taking his place as the heir of his father, and he surely did not expect Finwë to die. Clearly being an heir had some significance, even to deathless elves.
Finwë followed Fëanor in his banishment to Formenos, leaving Fingolfin in charge of the Noldor in Tirion. Perhaps an heir meant a second-in-command, then, and this position was what Fëanor was afraid of losing. But this is just as much of a speculation as saying elves might abdicate after a while.

 

[Fingon_Findekáno]

The only other relinquishment of a crown that I remember was when Feanor's eldest, Maedhros, gave the high kingship to Fingon. Again, not boredom and a desire to pursue other activities. Rather, it was a recognition of tremendous heroism in rescuing him from the Morgoth, and an attempt to heal the breach that Feanor had caused with his brothers and their families. It was political to the core, because the elves needed a united front to beat the Morgoth.

Maedhros gave the crown to Fingon’s father, Fingolfin, who was the half-brother of Fëanor. Fingolfin was the oldest heir left of the House of Finwë in ME, and Maedhros had his reasons for choosing to relinquish the crown to him, among which was trying to heal the divide between their two Houses. Maedhros hadn’t been in agreement with all the division and strife between their families in the first place, so the transfer of the crown was not purely a political move.

 

[Server Room Gremlin]

As I said, my main reasoning was that it made sense to me. Otherwise, what would be the point of having heirs at all in Valinor? Fëanor was worried about Fingolfin taking his place as the heir of his father, and he surely did not expect Finwë to die. Clearly being an heir had some significance, even to deathless elves.
Finwë followed Fëanor in his banishment to Formenos, leaving Fingolfin in charge of the Noldor in Tirion. Perhaps an heir meant a second-in-command, then, and this position was what Fëanor was afraid of losing. But this is just as much of a speculation as saying elves might abdicate after a while.

Our main issue is that the Silmarillion is a record of history, or notable events, in difficult circumstances. Not a recording of 'how elven society usually works when all goes well'. The elven kings kept meeting tragedy before they could rule for long.
If Tolkien ever clarified how things were 'supposed to be', it would have to be somewhere in his other notes, not in the main stories of the legendarium.

 

[david_wendelken]

Dysfunctional families can be destroyed by all kinds of petty jealousies. An heir has more status, that's reason enough.

 

[Maedhros_Nelyafinwë]

The topic of why Maedhros gave up the crown is a fascinating one to me and I think there were a ton of reasons for him doing it. The most obvious one is likely healing the feud between the Fëanorians and Nolofinwians, as you guys have already mentioned. But I think there were many others, including the following:

• Self-doubt. Basically five minutes after becoming the High King, Maedhros made a devastating miscalculation in dealing with Morgoth, resulting in all his men being killed and himself being captured and tortured for 30+ years. As he said later on, "A king is he who can hold his own or else his title is vain." I believe he was applying this logic to himself, and genuinely thought Fingolfin would be a better and wiser king than he would.
• Conflicts between the nature of the Oath and the nature of being a king. I think Maedhros was aware that the Oath would require him to do things not in the best interest of the people he governed.
• Wariness of the throne being passed on to his brothers. In the Silm, we see Maedhros attempting to restrain the volatility of his father and brothers. I think having so narrowly escaped death, he was thinking a lot about the possibility of his death and what it would have been like if one of his hot-tempered brothers had inherited the throne.