What are you writing about now?

[david_wendelken]

Because they thought they were going to be stopped by the Valar? Even Fingolfin's host thought the same and that's why they attacked the Teleri. And who would have taught them? The Teleri? What makes you think they would have aided them in this way too?
And over all, I don't really count them trying to steal the ships as a stupid move. Rushed and desperate? Sure, but stupid? I don't really see it. Care to enlighten me?

So, the correct response when the Valar might stop them is to murder the Teleri who don't want their property stolen? Nope. Not going to buy that.

Hurried and desperate? Hurried, certainly. Desperate? What for? It's not like the Morgoth is going to destroy the Silmarils. They'll still be there a few years later. They weren't desperate. They were selfish. They felt what they wanted was more important than what anyone else wanted, and that justified whatever they did to get it. It's not a pretty picture.

And Fingolfin's host came after Feanor attacked the Teleri. They were mistaken about who started it, but they didn't start the killing.

As for the ships, Feanor didn't send them back to get the rest of the Noldor and bring them over to join in the war. Instead, he burned them. I don't find that particularly smart.

And if he did it because some in his host realized they weren't exactly the good guys anymore and wanted to go back to Valinor, well, that doesn't reflect well on him either.

As for your complaint about "always bringing up the kinslaying", well, you can tell me how spiff the Nazi uniforms were and how great the invention of the autobahn was, but I'm still going to bring up the death camps to point out the Nazis weren't the good guys. Our deeds in life follow us. At least Fingolfin's host felt shame for their mistaken part in the kinslaying. Is there an example of the Feanorians showing shame for it? Any attempt at reparations? I don't recall one.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

And to clarify what makes me really mad:

We(Fëanorian fans) are shut down even when we offer such a thorough post that even I as an INTP(so logical I can become toxic because of it sometimes) can't find any flaws in. It's unfair and we're called the biased ones.

I've said what I've said here about this matter. I don't think I need to say more to get my point to those who want to listen to it, so I won't.

Have a good day you all.

 

[WatcherWraith]

So, the correct response when the Valar might stop them is to murder the Teleri who don't want their property stolen? Nope. Not going to buy that.

Hurried and desperate? Hurried, certainly. Desperate? What for? It's not like the Morgoth is going to destroy the Silmarils. They'll still be there a few years later. They weren't desperate. They were selfish. They felt what they wanted was more important than what anyone else wanted, and that justified whatever they did to get it. It's not a pretty picture.

And Fingolfin's host came after Feanor attacked the Teleri. They were mistaken about who started it, but they didn't start the killing.

As for the ships, Feanor didn't send them back to get the rest of the Noldor and bring them over to join in the war. Instead, he burned them. I don't find that particularly smart.

And if he did it because some in his host realized they weren't exactly the good guys anymore and wanted to go back to Valinor, well, that doesn't reflect well on him either.

As for your complaint about "always bringing up the kinslaying", well, you can tell me how spiff the Nazi uniforms were and how great the invention of the autobahn was, but I'm still going to bring up the death camps to point out the Nazis weren't the good guys. Our deeds in life follow us. At least Fingolfin's host felt shame for their mistaken part in the kinslaying. Is there an example of the Feanorians showing shame for it? Any attempt at reparations? I don't recall one.

Okay, hold on. You bring up some good points but then shoot yourself in the foot by jumping to exaggerations.

I must ask why you think the Fëanorians weren't desperate. In my last post about this, I referenced Fëanor's loss of his father, someone he loved even above his love for the Silmarils. While I believe everyone can admit Fëanor's flaws, especially his arrogance, he does not deserve being dismissed as nothing more than a bad guy slaughtering for his own sake and considering nothing else. He sought revenge for his father's death. He sought the return of the Silmarils, his life's greatest work. Aule himself said even giving up the Silmarils to Yavanna was a hard thing to ask of the elf, and now the most evil being in Arda has them, along with most if not all of the treasures and great crafts of the Noldor in general. Worse, they will never see any of those treasures even in Morgoth's hoard(if he has one) because Ungoliant ate all of them. Of course the entire house is desperate. Almost the entire people are desperate. They all lost something to Morgoth that day, wether it was the work of their hands or their king.

Second: what did it matter, in the end, if Morgoth was not going to destroy the Silmarils? These were the greatest work of the Noldor and it was now in the hands of their greatest foe. Can you imagine something precious to you, perhaps your own story you're working on now, in the hands of someone who wishes you nothing but harm and tragedy, who enjoys watching you suffer? Would it really matter whether or not they were going to destroy that work of yours? Wouldn't you try to get it back, that piece of yourself, as soon as possible? I know I would.

Yes, the Fëanorians burned the ships. Yes, the Noldor killed the Teleri. Why? Why? I don't know. I think Fëanor had the ability to wait, to perhaps build his own ships(the Noldor were certainly clever enough to figure it out), but what about in the meantime? The Teleri clearly were not about to help, they stood by the Valar. Fëanor saw the Valar as having betrayed his people already since he listened to the lies of Morgoth, and the Teleri have now allied themselves with these betrayers. In Fëanor's mind, this makes them equally guilty and equally treacherous. He has loyalty only to his own family by this point and he's already on a warpath. He has no interest in sparing those who are, to him, participating in his family's pain.

Burning the ships. Sheesh, yes this was a bad move, on all fronts. Why did he burn them? Because he saw traitors in his own camp? Because he took a wrathful pleasure in forcing those traitors to either go around and prove themselves or go back to the Valar in shame? Perhaps. I can certainly imagine it. But I know this: Maedhros felt shame for his father's actions. One of his friends was forced to cross Helcaraxë because of Fëanor's decision and Maedhros struggled with that.

But now there's your last point, the one I believe really did not do your views justice. Comparing the Fëanorians and their Noldor allies to the Nazis. That's downright unfair. And dismissing Tyelkormo's views as telling you "how spiff the uniforms were and how great the invention of the Autobahn was" is more than unfair, it's untrue. Tyelkormo's not stupid: the Fëanorians did some terrible things and we all know it. But Tyelkormo does something you have not yet: tried to figure out the reason why.

Look, I'm not saying the Fëanorians were right. I am not defending them. I'm explaining them. Even Nazis, if you want to continue the comparison, had reasons for what they did and weren't just "the evil guys". None of those reasons justify what they did, but they open our eyes to something beyond the bland "evil is as evil does" mentality. To hate evil justifiably, you must understand why it is evil, you must know the story and the reasons behind it. And not all German soldiers were like their more famous Nazi officers. Many wept when they saw the death camps. Many didn't even know about the atrocities. You cannot make them all the same.

If you want someone to listen to what you have to say, then please find out more about the story. Find out the reasons and find out what really went wrong. Then you will be able to have a conversation with those whom you disagree with where both sides feel heard and not merely dismissed, as I'm sure both sides felt here.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Well, this... whatever it was inspired me to finally write my Alqualondë chapter of A Dance With Fate. Updates will come when I got home and started with it.

 

[WatcherWraith]

I wish you lots of inspiration and motivation in equal measure!

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

I wish you lots of inspiration and motivation in equal measure!

And no procrastination!

 

[david_wendelken]

Okay, hold on. You bring up some good points but then shoot yourself in the foot by jumping to exaggerations.

I quite agree it was an exaggeration! My point was, you can't just say "well, they were swell people and it's not fair that people always bringing up the kinslaying" as if that should therefore be ignored. People bring it up over and over PRECISELY because it can't be ignored. It was a horribly evil deed.

I must ask why you think the Fëanorians weren't desperate. In my last post about this, I referenced Fëanor's loss of his father, someone he loved even above his love for the Silmarils. While I believe everyone can admit Fëanor's flaws, especially his arrogance, he does not deserve being dismissed as nothing more than a bad guy slaughtering for his own sake and considering nothing else. He sought revenge for his father's death. He sought the return of the Silmarils, his life's greatest work. Aule himself said even giving up the Silmarils to Yavanna was a hard thing to ask of the elf, and now the most evil being in Arda has them, along with most if not all of the treasures and great crafts of the Noldor in general. Worse, they will never see any of those treasures even in Morgoth's hoard(if he has one) because Ungoliant ate all of them. Of course the entire house is desperate. Almost the entire people are desperate. They all lost something to Morgoth that day, wether it was the work of their hands or their king.

The root of desperate comes from the loss of hope. That clearly doesn't apply. Let's look at other usages.
desperate (adjective)

1. feeling, showing, or involving a hopeless sense that a situation is so bad as to be impossible to deal with:
   "a desperate sadness enveloped Ruth"
   (of an act or attempt) tried in despair or when everything else has failed; having little hope of success:
   rugs used in a desperate attempt to save his life"
   • (of a situation) extremely bad, serious, or dangerous:
     "there is a desperate shortage of teachers"
   • (of a person) having a great need or desire for something:
     "I am desperate for a cigarette" · "the government is desperate to clean up Rio's streets"
   • (of a person or fight) violent or dangerous:
     "a desperate criminal" · "a desperate struggle"
   
   I bolded the only sub-definition of desperate that applies. Note that it's the only one where the desires of the person are the primary aspect. And that's my point. Their selfish desire for what they wanted (MY stuff, MY vengeance, My life's work) was all that mattered to them. They simply didn't care that the boats of the Teleri were THEIR life's work - and they burned them. Their desire was all that mattered to them, so they murdered Teleri to get what they wanted.
   
   Sure, vengeance against the Morgoth was a good thing. So was recovering their possessions. So was holding the Morgoth to account for his crimes. All good intentions.
   
   But if you commit evil deeds to a good end, you've still committed evil deeds. The question then becomes, was there a better way that had a better chance of working? And there were better choices. Build ships and use them. Build ships and negotiate with the Teleri to be transported. March across the Helcaraxë. Ask the Valar for help to leave.
   
   And instead they chose the hasty, violent, evil choice of the kinslaying and theft of the Teleri's life work. Then they built bad blood with Fingolfin by burning the ships and leaving Fingolfin's people stranded in Valinor so they took the Helcaraxë path out. Feanor wasn't willing to accept a delay or the inconvenience of such a path. Lots of bad results for a sub-optimally executed good goal.
   
   Fingolfin's people were willing to pay a price rather than leave their kindred in Middle-earth without their aid.
   
   So, hasty, violent, selfish, and evil actions were how the Feanorians started off, and that's how they responded when they saw Luthien alone and unprotected. It's par for the course.
   
   

Second: what did it matter, in the end, if Morgoth was not going to destroy the Silmarils? These were the greatest work of the Noldor and it was now in the hands of their greatest foe. Can you imagine something precious to you, perhaps your own story you're working on now, in the hands of someone who wishes you nothing but harm and tragedy, who enjoys watching you suffer? Would it really matter whether or not they were going to destroy that work of yours? Wouldn't you try to get it back, that piece of yourself, as soon as possible? I know I would.

Yeah, but I wouldn't sic an army on innocent people to steal the means to do it. These things matter.

Someone kidnapped or killed my family? I would fill the Grand Canyon with their blood to get my loved ones back or take vengeance. But I wouldn't kill the people in the car dealership to steal a car to get where I needed to be to do it.

Yes, the Fëanorians burned the ships. Yes, the Noldor killed the Teleri. Why? Why? I don't know. I think Fëanor had the ability to wait, to perhaps build his own ships(the Noldor were certainly clever enough to figure it out), but what about in the meantime? The Teleri clearly were not about to help, they stood by the Valar. Fëanor saw the Valar as having betrayed his people already since he listened to the lies of Morgoth, and the Teleri have now allied themselves with these betrayers. In Fëanor's mind, this makes them equally guilty and equally treacherous. He has loyalty only to his own family by this point and he's already on a warpath. He has no interest in sparing those who are, to him, participating in his family's pain.

Thanks for making my point, his own selfish desires were more important to him than acting morally and dispassionately thinking things through.

Burning the ships. Sheesh, yes this was a bad move, on all fronts. Why did he burn them? Because he saw traitors in his own camp? Because he took a wrathful pleasure in forcing those traitors to either go around and prove themselves or go back to the Valar in shame? Perhaps. I can certainly imagine it. But I know this: Maedhros felt shame for his father's actions. One of his friends was forced to cross Helcaraxë because of Fëanor's decision and Maedhros struggled with that.

Maedhros got it. He realized that his families actions were wrong to some degree. He's the only one who is documented as trying to make amends. Maglor at least showed remorse at the end, after they got a silmaril back.

But now there's your last point, the one I believe really did not do your views justice. Comparing the Fëanorians and their Noldor allies to the Nazis. That's downright unfair. And dismissing Tyelkormo's views as telling you "how spiff the uniforms were and how great the invention of the Autobahn was" is more than unfair, it's untrue. Tyelkormo's not stupid: the Fëanorians did some terrible things and we all know it. But Tyelkormo does something you have not yet: tried to figure out the reason why.

Yeah, I reached for exaggeration to make my point. I was reading things like they were great craftsmen, you should take that into account as justification. I'll admit it triggered me. I remember the Brock Turner rape trial. His defenders pointed out he was a great athlete. Yeah, but he's a rapist and that trumps athletic skill. In this case, they murdered the Teleri, stranded the Fingolfin branch of their family, burned the Teleri's life work, took Luthien captive, and attempted to usurp Nargothrond.

I had already figured out why Feanor acted as he did. I had already looked at all the reasons listed for actions and found them lacking. They were insufficient justification for his actions. Period.

Look, I'm not saying the Fëanorians were right. I am not defending them. I'm explaining them. Even Nazis, if you want to continue the comparison, had reasons for what they did and weren't just "the evil guys". None of those reasons justify what they did, but they open our eyes to something beyond the bland "evil is as evil does" mentality. To hate evil justifiably, you must understand why it is evil, you must know the story and the reasons behind it. And not all German soldiers were like their more famous Nazi officers. Many wept when they saw the death camps. Many didn't even know about the atrocities. You cannot make them all the same.

But we aren't discussing rank-and-file members of the Feanorian host. We're discussing Feanor and his sons and grandsons, the leaders.

If you want someone to listen to what you have to say, then please find out more about the story. Find out the reasons and find out what really went wrong. Then you will be able to have a conversation with those whom you disagree with where both sides feel heard and not merely dismissed, as I'm sure both sides felt here.

In my own set of stories, I posit that Feanor found the secret to embedding such a beautiful light into the Silmarils. He put the brightest and loveliest part of his own soul into them, his empathy. But it wasn't enough, so he secretly stole the empathy from his sons and grandsons and added it to the three jewels. It explains he and his family's lack of empathy afterwards, why he couldn't make them again. It also explains why both Maglor and Maedhros felt such remorse when they each held a silmaril in their own hands, they were again reconnected to their original empathy. Maedhros just had more than the usual share of empathy to begin with, which is why he had some left over after his dad's theft.

So, you see, I'm capable of showing empathy for their situation. I've even invented a reason why they lacked the empathy to see why their choices were wrong at the time they made them.

But that's my excuse for Feanor's sons and grandsons. I know of no exculpatory explanation that Tolkien offered and accepted as valid justifications.

 

[david_wendelken]

By the way, the video I linked to is very funny. It was an attempt to make clear that my exaggeration was meant to make a point in a funny way.

Obviously, I failed at that, and I apologize.

But do enjoy the video, it's very well done.

 

[Ent]

My, my.. were we fighting here? HERE, of all places?
An Ent can't turn their back for a minute any more..!!

I was going to say a thing about the whole issue of the Silmarils, etc. but I think I'll refrain, and let the bacon sizzle in the pan for awhile. Maybe the burner has been turned off, and perhaps the grease will quit flying out all over the place.

There are many differences of opinion on the whole issue... just like there are on everything else. And everyone's opinion has value, just like everywhere else. So then... may we all 'behave accordingly' and use our writing skills to say things in as acceptable a way as we can contrive.

If anyone wants me to re-write anything above in a way leaving it without 'hooks or barbs', please ask me.... it's entirely possible, and possibly good training as well. But - I don't think I really need to.

I'll shut up and go away now...
have a great day.

 

[WatcherWraith]

I quite agree it was an exaggeration! My point was, you can't just say "well, they were swell people and it's not fair that people always bringing up the kinslaying" as if that should therefore be ignored. People bring it up over and over PRECISELY because it can't be ignored. It was a horribly evil deed.

The root of desperate comes from the loss of hope. That clearly doesn't apply. Let's look at other usages.
desperate (adjective)

1. feeling, showing, or involving a hopeless sense that a situation is so bad as to be impossible to deal with:
   "a desperate sadness enveloped Ruth"
   (of an act or attempt) tried in despair or when everything else has failed; having little hope of success:
   rugs used in a desperate attempt to save his life"
   • (of a situation) extremely bad, serious, or dangerous:
     "there is a desperate shortage of teachers"
   • (of a person) having a great need or desire for something:
     "I am desperate for a cigarette" · "the government is desperate to clean up Rio's streets"
   • (of a person or fight) violent or dangerous:
     "a desperate criminal" · "a desperate struggle"
   
   I bolded the only sub-definition of desperate that applies. Note that it's the only one where the desires of the person are the primary aspect. And that's my point. Their selfish desire for what they wanted (MY stuff, MY vengeance, My life's work) was all that mattered to them. They simply didn't care that the boats of the Teleri were THEIR life's work - and they burned them. Their desire was all that mattered to them, so they murdered Teleri to get what they wanted.
   
   Sure, vengeance against the Morgoth was a good thing. So was recovering their possessions. So was holding the Morgoth to account for his crimes. All good intentions.
   
   But if you commit evil deeds to a good end, you've still committed evil deeds. The question then becomes, was there a better way that had a better chance of working? And there were better choices. Build ships and use them. Build ships and negotiate with the Teleri to be transported. March across the Helcaraxë. Ask the Valar for help to leave.
   
   And instead they chose the hasty, violent, evil choice of the kinslaying and theft of the Teleri's life work. Then they built bad blood with Fingolfin by burning the ships and leaving Fingolfin's people stranded in Valinor so they took the Helcaraxë path out. Feanor wasn't willing to accept a delay or the inconvenience of such a path. Lots of bad results for a sub-optimally executed good goal.
   
   Fingolfin's people were willing to pay a price rather than leave their kindred in Middle-earth without their aid.
   
   So, hasty, violent, selfish, and evil actions were how the Feanorians started off, and that's how they responded when they saw Luthien alone and unprotected. It's par for the course.

Yeah, but I wouldn't sic an army on innocent people to steal the means to do it. These things matter.

Someone kidnapped or killed my family? I would fill the Grand Canyon with their blood to get my loved ones back or take vengeance. But I wouldn't kill the people in the car dealership to steal a car to get where I needed to be to do it.

Thanks for making my point, his own selfish desires were more important to him than acting morally and dispassionately thinking things through.

Maedhros got it. He realized that his families actions were wrong to some degree. He's the only one who is documented as trying to make amends. Maglor at least showed remorse at the end, after they got a silmaril back.

Yeah, I reached for exaggeration to make my point. I was reading things like they were great craftsmen, you should take that into account as justification. I'll admit it triggered me. I remember the Brock Turner rape trial. His defenders pointed out he was a great athlete. Yeah, but he's a rapist and that trumps athletic skill. In this case, they murdered the Teleri, stranded the Fingolfin branch of their family, burned the Teleri's life work, took Luthien captive, and attempted to usurp Nargothrond.

I had already figured out why Feanor acted as he did. I had already looked at all the reasons listed for actions and found them lacking. They were insufficient justification for his actions. Period.

But we aren't discussing rank-and-file members of the Feanorian host. We're discussing Feanor and his sons and grandsons, the leaders.

In my own set of stories, I posit that Feanor found the secret to embedding such a beautiful light into the Silmarils. He put the brightest and loveliest part of his own soul into them, his empathy. But it wasn't enough, so he secretly stole the empathy from his sons and grandsons and added it to the three jewels. It explains he and his family's lack of empathy afterwards, why he couldn't make them again. It also explains why both Maglor and Maedhros felt such remorse when they each held a silmaril in their own hands, they were again reconnected to their original empathy. Maedhros just had more than the usual share of empathy to begin with, which is why he had some left over after his dad's theft.

So, you see, I'm capable of showing empathy for their situation. I've even invented a reason why they lacked the empathy to see why their choices were wrong at the time they made them.

But that's my excuse for Feanor's sons and grandsons. I know of no exculpatory explanation that Tolkien offered and accepted as valid justifications.

I'm not sure, but it sounds as though you think I'm trying to justify the Fëanoreans for their more atrocious actions. I know as well as you much of what they did cannot be justified, at least not in a way to make their actions good. I didn't even deny many of the things you stated in my original post, yet you seem to be trying to convince me of their truth. This leaves me confused as to what you read me saying.

I do have a few questions to pose: in what way does the first definition of Desperation not apply?

"feeling, showing, or involving a hopeless sense that a situation is so bad as to be impossible to deal with:
"a desperate sadness enveloped Ruth"
(of an act or attempt) tried in despair or when everything else has failed; having little hope of success:
"rugs used in a desperate attempt to save his life""

From what I read, this is exactly the situation Fëanor believed himself to be in. In his mind, everyone but his family and those of his people willing to follow him have turned against the elves as a whole, have rejected the freedom they could have had and are actively denying him the vengeance he craves for his father's death and the theft of his people's treasures. The Valar themselves refuse to help and they have no support. Many times Fëanor declares the hopelessness of the situation and his resolve to carry on in spite of all that. These scenes were practically oozing desperation(unless you wish to attribute certain motivations to the definition stated above).

My next question is how does your example of the Brock Turner trial equate with the Fëanorean situation? While I admit I know nothing of the trial itself, your words appear to imply his defenders sought to either ease his sentencing by referencing his skill as an athlete or to use his skill as an illustration for his innocence. The first method seems more likely to me, and so I shall proceed with it: no one is trying to justify the Fëanoreans by calling attention to their skill. Their skill is referenced as a means of understanding the events as they truly unfolded. One must have the whole relevant story, and I'll wager Brock's athleticism was either irrelevant or minimally so at best.

My last question is this: why do you continue to behave as if your fellows are either blind or ignoring the evil actions of others? None of these are charitable interpretations of their beliefs and do both them and yourself injustice. I would have asked "Do you think your fellows are blind or ignoring the evil actions of others", but the answer to this is obvious, though it wouldn't touch on the underlying assumptions being made by your words.

I'm challenging you more openly in this post because I saw opinions presented without indication of being fully thought out, or even questioned. After this, I shall take whatever answer you give and go my way, as I have laid out my position as clearly as I believe necessary. If you think I should have written to Tyelkormo and Maedhros in the same manner, I will tell you it already takes a good deal of thought and questioning to reach the conclusions they did, and each of their conclusions I have seen so far aligns with the books as I have understood them to date. If I do see something to call out, I will, and we shall see what becomes of it.

 

[WatcherWraith]

My, my.. were we fighting here? HERE, of all places?
An Ent can't turn their back for a minute any more..!!

I was going to say a thing about the whole issue of the Silmarils, etc. but I think I'll refrain, and let the bacon sizzle in the pan for awhile. Maybe the burner has been turned off, and perhaps the grease will quit flying out all over the place.

There are many differences of opinion on the whole issue... just like there are on everything else. And everyone's opinion has value, just like everywhere else. So then... may we all 'behave accordingly' and use our writing skills to say things in as acceptable a way as we can contrive.

If anyone wants me to re-write anything above in a way leaving it without 'hooks or barbs', please ask me.... it's entirely possible, and possibly good training as well. But - I don't think I really need to.

I'll shut up and go away now...
have a great day.

No need to re-write as far as I can see. My latest post will be my last on this matter, and hopefully things will cool down soon. I also believe everyone's opinion has value, but in order to bring out the fullest potential, they must be questioned. That's what I tried to do here.

Thanks for checking in on us, Ent :]
We'll be alright in a little bit.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Well, I also stand by my last statement. I've got more important things to do.🤷🏻‍♀️

See y'all later with more news of my progress.😌

 

[Ent]

I am pondering withdrawing your challenge, @WatcherWraith.
I don't think it can lead to anything that is further beneficial here.
I do think it could be worded differently, with less challenge to the way it's presented... as some of the former stuff should have been, by others too.
We're not 'discussing' here - we're 'arguing'.

I'll give you one small example of a fix using your last as a sample:
You say: "My next question is how your example of the Brock Turner trial equates with the Fëanorean situation."
This is a statement. i.e. a 'challenge' in the circumstances surrounding this whole thing.

If it were set aside, and phrased "Can you exlpain to me how your example of the Brock Turner trial is the same as the Fëanorean situation? I'm not quite sure I get it..." - we'd be on a whole different playing field.

Power in discussion is in questions, not statements.

And the next is really difficult for me.
"My last question is this: why do you continue to behave as if your fellows are either blind, stupid or upholding evil actions?"

Calling someone out directly on their behavior publicly, can only ever rile them further. I could name a few US presidents who can't handle being put on the spot... their response is ALWAYS knee-jerk... but I'll refrain.

There's more... not just in your last, but in the prior ones by others as well... but again I'll refrain.

Let's just stop it. We have differences of opinion. This is the very nature of opinion. It's not entirely based in fact, but in supposition, background, and the extent of knowledge and perspective we currently hold. Yet we all have different backgrounds.

The Religion of Opinion has set in on this post at this time, heels are dug in, and folk aren't listening. SO... time to stop.

My view differs from anything shared yet to a degree... though it incorporates it all. But I will not share it now.

Let's move on.
Thank you.
@david_wendelken - please don't take up the gauntlet... it's rusted to ineffectiveness.

 

[Maedhros_Nelyafinwë]

I've been trying to stay out of this conversation once it derailed, but I feel as though I must speak up a little bit now.

Personally, I feel that by bringing the comparison to Nazis into this discussion, my friends and I are having our moral character attacked for our views on the Fëanorians. This is unfair, especially since the Fëanorians are fictional and the Nazis are real. I don't mind differences of opinion and I'm not trying to convince anyone to like the Fëanorians, but this feels like borderline harassment.

 

[Ent]

It is indeed totally inappropriate @Maedhros_Nelyafinwë. 'Nuff said?!

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

Speaking of the narrative bias of the Silmarillion, I personally love Arinariel's works and how she makes sense of it.

In her works, it's Pongolodh of Gondolin who writes the Silmarillion as we know it, and this is why it is so heavily biased on the Noldor and the Nolofinwians and Arafinwians for the most part. By the time he starts writing it, anyone who was part of the Fëanorian host after the NA are either dead or wandering around and away from the society of elves, or were nothing but civilians and didn't know the sons very closely. As for the Sindar, those of Menegroth would have nothing to do with the Noldor and so they went away.(Oropher is their leader in this story.)

So basically, all Pengolodh has are third, fourth and even fifth hand information from those parties and unreliable, but as I said, they are the only information sources he has access to.

I personally felt great kinship with how he was portrayed here. Very INTP and just an over all an innocent and curious soul. Would have been me in my prime.😅

What It Means to be a King - Chapter 1 - Arinariel - Multifandom [Archive of Our Own]

An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works

archiveofourown.org

Here's the link for those who wish to read it for themselves.

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

In her works, it's Pongolodh of Gondolin who writes the Silmarillion as we know it, and this is why it is so heavily biased on the Noldor and the Nolofinwians and Arafinwians for the most part

It's not just in her works. It is indeed canon. Pengolodh did write the Sil as we know it. Tolkien would describe himself as the re-discoverer of Middle-Earth's histories, which he translated from the original.

 

[Tyelkormo the Fair]

It's not just in her works. It is indeed canon. Pengolodh did write the Sil as we know it. Tolkien would describe himself as the re-discoverer of Middle-Earth's histories, which he translated from the original.

Oh I didn't know that. You know, that's the problem with Arinariel. Her own elements are so Tolkien like that you Sometimes just can't tell the difference. According to herself, she spent a good few years studying all the published books and the HoME before writing, so it makes sense in a way. That's why she's my all time favorite.

 

[Ent]

Tolkien would describe himself as the re-discoverer of Middle-Earth's histories, which he translated from the original.

Glorfy, you've got me curious. Do you have a reference for this one?
I've read Tolkien describing himself as the 'sub-creator' of it all in his letters, seeming to be 'discovering' things as he went along, as he did when Faramir suddenly entered the picture in LoTR for example...

But I've not yet heard him describe a different creator, nor heard the name Pengolodh in any of my readings.

(I'll start a digital search... this is just too nifty to pass by.)

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

I heard it from an interview with Tom Shippey where he describes Tolkien as seeing himself as the re-discoverer, not the creator.

But I've not yet heard him describe a different creator, nor heard the name Pengolodh in any of my readings.

Pengolodh is not mentioned in the legendarium itself. He is only mentioned outside of it in HOME.

Annals of Beleriand and Valinor are basically the sum of the whole legendarium.

I'm sure there's more references, but these were the ones I found through quick paging.