Including The Lays of Beleriand into Reading of the Second Age

[Duguay]

Hello fellow Tolkien enthusiast. I made my way through The Silmarillion somewhat recently, and was able to find guidance on how to incorporate material from THoMe, The Unfinished Tales, and the Children of Hurin to make an expanded experience. It probably sounds like madness, but it worked for me well actually.

I'm still making my way through material I wanted to read before diving into the Second Age, guided by the Tale of Years appendix in TLotR. I have an outlined reading plan that I'm mostly satisfied with. Yet, I thought there was something more I could include, to enhance the sense of The Second Age, and how the people of that age relate to their history and legends as they came to them from The First Age. To get closer to the psychology of the people living through the Second Age, as it were.

My idea is to include some of the poetry from the Lays of Beleriand, as an example of cultural development. When the peoples of Middle-earth settle in to their new living situations in Numenor and Lindon and Eregion, and they are able to reflect on their history, and the great artisans of the age take the history and romanticize it into poetic form. This is partly coming from the impression that Tolkien didn't reject older versions of the stories, he would conclude that the discrepancies were because of cultural emphasis. So an "Elves only" Elvish poet would re-write Beren and Luthian, featuring both Beren and Luthian as Elvish characters for some reason (this is an inelegant hypothetical example). Or the Numenorean's favored poetic version would emphasize the limitations of what is possible in terms of death, living again, and where people go in the afterlife. Or maybe the Numenoreans were more interested in poetry about Turin.

The secondary consideration is that it keeps the events of The First Age fresh in my mind, even as the events might be filtered through the eyes of the people of the Second Age; filtered by deliberate emphasis or changes of the narratives through the fallibility of memory, errors of translation, or scribal error in copying/retelling.

I am hoping to get the impressions of readers who have read the Lays of Beleriand, would some of the epic poetry work as a hypothetical glimpse into cultures of The Second Age? Or are some of the poems more likely fit for having been written during The Third Age? And even if it's a stretch, I'm interested in people's personal opinions about their vibe of whether it could work or not. I'm even a little non-committal about included the poetry, and am even fine with circling back to the poems much later if this doesn't seem like a good fit.

Thank you for any suggestions and insights that come to mind!

 

[Elthir]

Hello Duguay.

I'm pretty sure that most* if not all of the poetry in The Lays of Beleriand are imagined within the framework of the Ælfwine Transmission, meaning (in brief): tales told in Tol Eressea > Ælfwine writes them down in Anglo-Saxon > Tolkien translates them into Modern English.

With respect to the Lay of the Children of Húrin, the character Ælfwine persisted into the later 1950s (the following quote probably dates to c. 1958). Ælfwine explains: "I have not added to Dírhaval's tale, nor omitted from it anything that he told; neither have I changed the order of the history. But on matters that seemed of interest, or that were dark with the passing of the years, I have made notes, whether within the tale or upon its margins, according to such lore as I found in Eressea."
JRRT, Ælfwine and Dírhaval The War of The Jewels

So at this point we have a Lay in an Elvish mode of verse written by Dírhaval, a man who lived at the Havens towards the end of the First Age and gathered all the information he could about the House of Hador. And notably, Ælfwine also remarks that he did not feel able to translate the work in verse, so he rendered it in prose.

🐾 (paws for reflection)

So if Tolkien-as-Translator only had Ælfwine's prose translation, then one might assume that the Lay in the book is Tolkien's own rendition, putting prose back into verse.

Or something else? Now my pointed head hurts. I'm trying to keep internal and external stuff in the correct chambers of my skull!

With respect to the Lay of Leithian, the LQ2 (Later Quenta Silmarillion) revision reads: "Of their lives was made the Lay of Leithian, Release from Bondage, which is the longest save one of the songs of [the Noldor >] Númenor concerning the world of old; . . ."

Here we see the later change with respect to the new, revised transmission. For short, I call it the Númenórean Transmission -- or for less short, the Númenórean > Bilbo Transmission.

Later still, in note 17 to The Shibboleth of Feanor (written in 1968 or later) it's stated that the Silmarillion is not an Eldarin title or work, but a compilation, probably made in Númenor:
". . . which includes (in prose) the four great tales or lays of the heroes of the Atani, of which
'The Children of Húrin' was probably composed already in Beleriand in the First Age. . ."

. . . and the note concludes (concerning the compiled Silmarillion, and the four great tales in prose, and seemingly the account of Feanor and his making of the Silmarils). "All however are 'Mannish works.'"

Tolkien's note above "in prose" is interesting here with respect to the Lay of the Children of Húrin, for (as I noted above but now repeat for some reason) Dírhaval wrote in verse and his work was said to be rendered into prose. I think JRRT appears to refer to The Lay of the Children of Húrin with his description of the longest save one of the songs of Númenor, though in any case The Shibboleth note has a good chance of being later than the revision to LQ2.

I'm not sure if any of this helps!

____________________
*I'd have to re-read the Lay of Leithian Recommenced to see if there are any "transmission clues" with respect to the revised scenario, but for now I can generally note that according to Christopher Tolkien, some parts of the Lay Recommenced could be post-1955, or "considerably later than that"

(. . .) This is partly coming from the impression that Tolkien didn't reject older versions of the stories, he would conclude that the discrepancies were because of cultural emphasis.

I agree that Tolkien imagined a multi-perspective legendarium, but rather than characterizing externally rejected versions of the same story as part of the Legendarium, I'd point to different traditions wherein "discrepancies" were Tolkien-intended.

A notable example of this is Tolkien's Akallabêth (mixed version, Elvish and Mannish) versus his
The Drowning of Anadûnê (Mannish version). Here the confusions and differences between traditions are deliberate, and thus, in my opinion, constitute part of the true art of world-building.

Of course it's true that Tolkien did not reject wholesale earlier versions of Quenta Silmarillion for example, but I see no reason to think he imagined each one as a version existing in the imagined Legendarium.

Needless aside: I just read an article putting forth that, despite Tolkien "snapping his fingers" regarding the transmission mode, The Silmarillion remains an Elvish work. I'll need to muse more about that argument.

Or are some of the poems more likely fit for having been written during The Third Age?

Well, it's not from "Lays of Beleriand" but I'm guessing poem 14 is relatively late, at least

"These two pieces [poems 6 and 16], therefore, are only re-handlings of Southern matter, though this may have reached Bilbo by way of Rivendell. No. 14 also depends upon the lore of Rivendell, Elvish and Númenórean, concerning the heroic days of the end of the First Age; it seems to contain echoes of the Númenórean tale of Turin and Mim the Dwarf."

JRRT, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil

 

[Garry005]

Hello fellow Tolkien enthusiast. I made my way through The Silmarillion somewhat recently, and was able to find guidance on how to incorporate material from THoMe, The Unfinished Tales, and the Children of Hurin to make an expanded experience. It probably sounds like madness, but it worked for me well actually.

I'm still making my way through material I wanted to read before diving into the Second Age, guided by the Tale of Years appendix in TLotR. I have an outlined reading plan that I'm mostly satisfied with. Yet, I thought there was something more I could include, to enhance the sense of The Second Age, and how the people of that age relate to their history and legends as they came to them from The First Age. To get closer to the psychology of the people living through the Second Age, as it were.

My idea is to include some of the poetry from the Lays of Beleriand, as an example of cultural development. When the peoples of Middle-earth settle in to their new living situations in Numenor and Lindon and Eregion, and they are able to reflect on their history, and the great artisans of the age take the history and romanticize it into poetic form. This is partly coming from the impression that Tolkien didn't reject older versions of the stories, he would conclude that the discrepancies were because of cultural emphasis. So an "Elves only" Elvish poet would re-write Beren and Luthian, featuring both Beren and Luthian as Elvish characters for some reason (this is an inelegant hypothetical example). Or the Numenorean's favored poetic version would emphasize the limitations of what is possible in terms of death, living again, and where people go in the afterlife. Or maybe the Numenoreans were more interested in poetry about Turin.

The secondary consideration is that it keeps the events of The First Age fresh in my mind, even as the events might be filtered through the eyes of the people of the Second Age; filtered by deliberate emphasis or changes of the narratives through the fallibility of memory, errors of translation, or scribal error in copying/retelling.

I am hoping to get the impressions of readers who have read the Lays of Beleriand, would some of the epic poetry work as a hypothetical glimpse into cultures of The Second Age? Or are some of the poems more likely fit for having been written during The Third Age? And even if it's a stretch, I'm interested in people's personal opinions about their vibe of whether it could work or not. I'm even a little non-committal about included the poetry, and am even fine with circling back to the poems much later if this doesn't seem like a good fit.

Thank you for any suggestions and insights that come to mind!

Hi. Your idea with poetry and its inclusion in reading about the Second Age looks very interesting. Tolkien really placed a lot of importance on the cultural context of his stories, and poetry can be a great way to delve into this era.

Poetry from the “Lists of Beleriand” can serve as a reflection of how the peoples of Middle Earth comprehended their history and legends. This will allow not only to feel the atmosphere of the First Age, but also to see how it is being reinterpreted in the conditions of the Second Millennium. Poetry that emphasizes different cultural aspects can be a good bridge between these two eras.

For example, the poems of the Numenorians, which may emphasize the themes of death and the afterlife, fully visualize their fears and hopes. They also illustrate how memories of past heroes like Turin can hint at their own identity and attitude toward fate.

As for the perception of these works, I personally believe that they can enhance the emotional perception of history. If you focus on their contextual significance, it can add depth and versatility to your journey into the Second World War.

So, I would say that your approach is absolutely reasonable. If poetry is perceived as a cultural commentary, it can only enrich your experience. Sometimes it's worth experimenting with such things, even if you decide in the end that it's not your topic. Good luck with your reading!

 

[Elthir]

For example, the poems of the Numenorians, which may emphasize the themes of death and the afterlife, fully visualize their fears and hopes. They also illustrate how memories of past heroes like Turin can hint at their own identity and attitude toward fate.

This could well be the case, generally speaking, but what I'm trying to say above is that there's no Númenórean poetry in The Lays of Beleriand (though include my caveat above about possibly some parts of the later Lay of Leithian) The poetry about Túrin, for example, hails rather from this chain of transmission:

The actual adventures of Túrin Turambar, his life and death.

jump in time

A man named Dírhaval, who lived near the end of the First Age, writes the lay of The Children of Húrin in Grey-elven, and in a mode of Elvish verse called (at least according to one text anyway) Minlamad thent / estent.

notable jump in time

An Anglo-Saxon mariner called Ælfwine (Elf-friend) eventually voyages to Tol Eressea, writes a prose version of Túrin's story (among other things).

many more years pass by

In the 20th century, Tolkien translates Ælfwine's prose tale. JRRT also (I assume) writes a poetic version in alliterative verse, as the Elvish minlammad thent / estent is said to be "not wholly unlike" the alliterative mode of Old English poetry.

____________________

So basically, we go from the end of the First Age to an Anglo-Saxon who knows nothing of these Elves and Men, and thus, through two Englishmen, Ælfwine and JRR Tolkien, we get the "true" tales of the Elves (compared to the fairy tales of the Irish or the Welsh, for examples), rendered first into Old English, and later into Modern English.

Of course I could be wrong, but that's how I'm trying to absorb the available information.

One could imaginatively replace Ælfwine with a Númenórean, but even there I'd have to also imagine that this Númenórean wrote a poetic version, where Ælfwine did not. And the question remains, if not Tolkien himself, who wrote the alliterative verse that actually appears in the books? Which was, in any case, never re-written within the framework of the Númenórean > Bilbo tradition.

 

[Duguay]

Hello Duguay.

Hi Elthir! I was going to write a reply sooner, however I waited until I could reply properly to your own post. Your post is one version of exactly what I was looking for, in terms of level of detail and knowledge of THoMe and The Lays of Beleriand in particular. I probably wouldn't have understood half of what you wrote if I hadn't dabbled into THoMe at all by now, so I'm happy for another of the benefits of The History. I was going to joke that you should have had numbers throughout your text to lead to a Notes section at the bottom of your post! (Meaning that in a good-natured way ) But of all things, you used an asterisk in the second sentence of it, so you're winning.

...and actually, I'm surprised to realize I can't reply more substantially other than to reiterate my thanks at how thoroughly and thoughtfully you've satisfied my curiosity about where the Lays of Beleriand fit within the fictional world of Middle-earth. I'm very nearly speechless, so I'll just say again, thank you! Your information is just fantastic.

 

[Duguay]

Hi. Your idea with poetry and its inclusion in reading about the Second Age looks very interesting. Tolkien really placed a lot of importance on the cultural context of his stories, and poetry can be a great way to delve into this era.

Thank you!

Poetry from the “Lists of Beleriand” can serve as a reflection of how the peoples of Middle Earth comprehended their history and legends. This will allow not only to feel the atmosphere of the First Age, but also to see how it is being reinterpreted in the conditions of the Second Millennium. Poetry that emphasizes different cultural aspects can be a good bridge between these two eras.

For example, the poems of the Numenorians, which may emphasize the themes of death and the afterlife, fully visualize their fears and hopes. They also illustrate how memories of past heroes like Turin can hint at their own identity and attitude toward fate.

Yes, this is kind of what I was thinking. I almost at one point was going to include passages of the Turin poetry within my reading of The Children of Hurin book, given how there are descriptive passages of Turin's journey at one point that are more details than in any other version of Turin's story, including all the prose versions. But I lost track of that idea in the natural flow of just reading The Children of Hurin.

One idea I had would be to read versions of the Beren and Luthian poems during the earliest phase of Numenor's lifespan, as an important foundational story for Numenor's culture. And then later read a version of the Turin epic poem, right before the Numenorean royal dynasty starts to go sour. The idea that at it's height Numenor celebrates the more martial aspects of it's national history, at first with pride and somber reflection. The Numenoreans are at first somber about the infectious, viral curse the Valar placed on the Noldor and the War of the Jewels. But a few generations later the Numenoreans reflect on Hurin and Turin's story, and they brood on the Doom of Mandos as an insult that their forefathers endured blamelessly, resenting the Valar for causing harm, ect.

As for the perception of these works, I personally believe that they can enhance the emotional perception of history. If you focus on their contextual significance, it can add depth and versatility to your journey into the Second World War.

So, I would say that your approach is absolutely reasonable. If poetry is perceived as a cultural commentary, it can only enrich your experience. Sometimes it's worth experimenting with such things, even if you decide in the end that it's not your topic. Good luck with your reading!

I appreciate your thoughts on my idea, as much as Elthir's, thank you for your perspective.

 

[Elthir]

Duguay

After such a nice thank you, I feel I must put a stamp of "if" on both of my posts above -- that is,
if I'm interpreting things correctly here; but part of the reason I posted my characterizations is to
see (another if) if any folks agree or disagree with them.

I know there's scholarly works out there which focus on Tolkien's internal authors and/or frameworks of textual transmission, but no doubt I've only read some of these. And possibly only a few of many?