Does Bombadil secretly hate hobbits?

[Radaghast]

Then, instead of escorting them to the 'border' of his own little kingdom (or even to Bree itself), he lets them ride off, knowing full well how close their path will take them to the Barrow-downs and their nasty inhabitants.
He gives them a rhyme to sing, if they should 'by ill-luck fall into any danger or difficulty the next day'.
Ill-luck? It's almost guaranteed that they will end up as Barrow-wight fodder - either he's been quaffing way too much hooch with Maggot, or there's something much darker going on here.

I confess that it is perhaps odd that Tom doesn't escort the Hobbits past the Barrow-downs, but I'm not sure what the darker thing could be that's going on. Tom hoping the Hobbits forget the rhyme? There some kind of rule that he has to tell them this rhyme, give them the chance to forget it and the Barrow-wights get the chance to sacrifice some Hobbits? 🤨😐

 

[Deimos]

I confess that it is perhaps odd that Tom doesn't escort the Hobbits past the Barrow-downs, but I'm not sure what the darker thing could be that's going on. Tom hoping the Hobbits forget the rhyme? There some kind of rule that he has to tell them this rhyme, give them the chance to forget it and the Barrow-wights to sacrifice some Hobbits? 🤨😐

I don't see it as odd at all.
He warned them about the barrow wights, emphatically, and more than once.
(I still think Tom is gifted with some degree of prescience.)
He sends them on their way unescorted but he has not left them totally on their own.
1) He is close by
2) He has instructed them in how to summon him.
This is, for the Hobbits, another test, where in the are gradually developing the virtue of prudence** (among others).
They must be left alone, to rely on themselves, to learn.
It is no different than training an athlete, and then finally putting him on the field to be tested. The coach is there, if he is needed.
But as the athlete improves, he needs less and less coaching.
The coach's reward, a most gratifying one, is to see his athlete successfully, perhaps even flawlessly, perform.

** The virtue of prudence is the ability to make right decisions from a purely natural perspective. It assists people to arrange their lives and activities in order to achieve the goal of a happy life. Prudence is basically common sense in sound judgment regarding practical matters.
Note: I googled the above definition. There were many similar ones.

 

[Radaghast]

I don't see it as odd at all.
He warned them about the barrow wights, emphatically, and more than once.
(I still think Tom is gifted with some degree of prescience.)
He sends them on their way unescorted but he has not left them totally on their own.
1) He is close by
2) He has instructed them in how to summon him.
This is, for the Hobbits, another test, where in the are gradually developing the virtue of prudence** (among others).
They must be left alone, to rely on themselves, to learn.
It is no different than training an athlete, and then finally putting him on the field to be tested. The coach is there, if he is needed.
But as the athlete improves, he needs less and less coaching.
The coach's reward, a most gratifying one, is to see his athlete successfully, perhaps even flawlessly, perform.

** The virtue of prudence is the ability to make right decisions from a purely natural perspective. It assists people to arrange their lives and activities in order to achieve the goal of a happy life. Prudence is basically common sense in sound judgment regarding practical matters.
Note: I googled the above definition. There were many similar ones.

Works for me.

 

[TrackerOrc]

I confess that it is perhaps odd that Tom doesn't escort the Hobbits past the Barrow-downs, but I'm not sure what the darker thing could be that's going on. Tom hoping the Hobbits forget the rhyme? There some kind of rule that he has to tell them this rhyme, give them the chance to forget it and the Barrow-wights to sacrifice some Hobbits? 🤨😐

To me, the darker thing is that he doesn't really care about them enough to simply escort them to a place of safety (which he ends up doing anyway); it's almost more of an effort not to see them to safety. Makes no sense whatsoever to me for him to put the hobbits into a place of real danger when he doesn't need to.

 

[Radaghast]

To me, the darker thing is that he doesn't really care about them enough to simply escort them to a place of safety (which he ends up doing anyway); it's almost more of an effort not to see them to safety. Makes no sense whatsoever to me for him to put the hobbits into a place of real danger when he doesn't need to.

He doesn't put them there. They have to go past that area to get to where they're going.

 

[TrackerOrc]

He doesn't put them there. They have to go past that area to get to where they're going.

He could take them past the Barrow Downs himself; he chooses not to, and I can't make sense of this at all. They could all get to Bree safely and get on with the story.

 

[Radaghast]

He could take them past the Barrow Downs himself; he chooses not to, and I can't make sense of this at all. They could all get to Bree safely and get on with the story.

Well, to that I say perhaps Tom wants the Hobbits to experience the world a bit more as others have postulated in this thread. Our Hobbit quartet still soft and need some hardening. I don't think that is so far-fetched an idea. Yes, Tom ends up rescuing them anyway, but they needed that experience to get them out of their comfort zone. Also, it's much more interesting than an uneventful journey past the Downs.

In any case, I cannot fathom how this would translate to Tom having a secret hatred of hobbits.

 

[TrackerOrc]

I don't see it as odd at all.
He warned them about the barrow wights, emphatically, and more than once.
(I still think Tom is gifted with some degree of prescience.)
He sends them on their way unescorted but he has not left them totally on their own.
1) He is close by
2) He has instructed them in how to summon him.
This is, for the Hobbits, another test, where in the are gradually developing the virtue of prudence** (among others).
They must be left alone, to rely on themselves, to learn.
It is no different than training an athlete, and then finally putting him on the field to be tested. The coach is there, if he is needed.
But as the athlete improves, he needs less and less coaching.
The coach's reward, a most gratifying one, is to see his athlete successfully, perhaps even flawlessly, perform.

** The virtue of prudence is the ability to make right decisions from a purely natural perspective. It assists people to arrange their lives and activities in order to achieve the goal of a happy life. Prudence is basically common sense in sound judgment regarding practical matters.
Note: I googled the above definition. There were many similar ones.

I just can't see Bombadil like this at all I'm afraid.

As Gandalf says in the Council of Elrond, he would need all of M-E to beg for him to take the Ring, and then would probably forget all about it anyway. How does this figure with someone going out of their way to teach lessons to hobbits? It just doesn't balance out.

And I also don't think that giving someone a magic get out of jail free rhyme is actually teaching them anything other than to always have a magic get out of jail free rhyme handy; to me, Frodo's strength is his and his alone to discover.

I see Bombadil as entirely self-centred. I don't mean personally selfish or anything like that - once he crashes into your orbit he is a nice guy, feeds and waters you, tells you nice stories etc -but once you leave his self-appointed bubble you basically cease to exist.

He wants to teach the hobbits to help themselves, but leaves the Shire completely in the lurch in times of trouble, like the Long winter and saruman's invasion? Doesn't add up for me i'm afraid.

 

[Elwing the White]

Not here to debate, but, Tom Bombadil hating hobbits? Seems a bit far-fetched. Not being involved in helping them as he could be? Perhaps.
If Tom Bombadil had a villain arc it should be about how he kills people with his irrelevance to the plot.

 

[TrackerOrc]

Well, to that I say perhaps Tom wants the Hobbits to experience the world a bit more as others have postulated in this thread. Our Hobbit quartet still soft and need some hardening. I don't think that is so far-fetched an idea. Yes, Tom ends up rescuing them anyway, but they needed that experience to get them out of their comfort zone. Also, it's much more interesting than an uneventful journey past the Downs.

In any case, I cannot fathom how this would translate to Tom having a secret hatred of hobbits.

As I've said elsewhere in this thread, this version of Bombadil being concerned with the hobbits simply doesn't balance out with the complete indifference he shows to everything outside his immediate circle.

And the thread title was slightly tongue in cheek to begin with.

 

[Radaghast]

As Gandalf says in the Council of Elrond, he would need all of M-E to beg for him to take the Ring, and then would probably forget all about it anyway. How does this figure with someone going out of their way to teach lessons to hobbits? It just doesn't balance out.

They don't always have it, obviously. It only works within Tom's realm.

And I also don't think that giving someone a magic get out of jail free rhyme is actually teaching them anything other than to always have a magic get out of jail free rhyme handy; to me, Frodo's strength is his and his alone to discover.

And he does. I don't see the issue.

I see Bombadil as entirely self-centred. I don't mean personally selfish or anything like that - once he crashes into your orbit he is a nice guy, feeds and waters you, tells you nice stories etc -but once you leave his self-appointed bubble you basically cease to exist.

He wants to teach the hobbits to help themselves, but leaves the Shire completely in the lurch in times of trouble, like the Long winter and saruman's invasion? Doesn't add up for me i'm afraid.

As Gandalf says, he won't leave his domain and the Shire is not within it. You're waaaay overthinking this guy. Far more than seems reasonable to me.

 

[Deimos]

Recall the scene inside the barrow...

"At first Frodo felt he had indeed been turned into stone by the incantation. Then a wild thought of escape came to him. He wondered if he put on the Ring, whether the Barrow-wight would miss him, and he might find some way out. He thought of himself running free over the grass, grieving for Merry, and Sam, and Pippin, but free and alive himself. Gandalf would admit that there had been nothing else he could do.

But the courage that had been awakened in him was now too strong: he could not leave his friends so easily. He wavered, groping in his pocket, and then fought with himself again; and as he did so the arm crept nearer. Suddenly resolve hardened in him, and he seized a short sword that lay beside him...."

Frodo is tested, and passes the test; and he has learned something about himself.
He thought of escaping, leaving his friends, and then tries to justify it, by thinking Gandalf would agree.
And he continues to struggle until his better self prevails. You may be certain he never forgot his first thought of escaping while leaving his friends behind.
Had Tom been with them this never would have happened.

 

[TrackerOrc]

They don't always have it, obviously. It only works within Tom's realm.


And he does. I don't see the issue.


As Gandalf says, he won't leave his domain and the Shire is not within it. You're waaaay overthinking this guy. Far more than seems reasonable to me.

I'd say that one issue with the magic rhyme is that it actually inhibits any personal growth on Frodo's part; it's easy to be brave with that in your pocket.

Bombadil leaves his domain when he wants to - doesn't he go drinking with Farmer Maggot? And if he decided never to leave the Forest, what would stop him sending aid to the hobbits?

 

[Radaghast]

I'd say that one issue with the magic rhyme is that it actually inhibits any personal growth on Frodo's part; it's easy to be brave with that in your pocket.

He said the rhyme after he'd already displayed bravery. He saw his friends in a deathlike state and that's when he remembered the rhyme.

Bombadil leaves his domain when he wants to - doesn't he go drinking with Farmer Maggot? And if he decided never to leave the Forest, what would stop him sending aid to the hobbits?

We don't know the circumstances of this. Maggot could've gone into the Old Forest, or could have conversed with Tom over the border between his farm and the Old Forest. Drinking? 🤨 And what kind of aid would you expect him to send?

 

[TrackerOrc]

Recall the scene inside the barrow...

"At first Frodo felt he had indeed been turned into stone by the incantation. Then a wild thought of escape came to him. He wondered if he put on the Ring, whether the Barrow-wight would miss him, and he might find some way out. He thought of himself running free over the grass, grieving for Merry, and Sam, and Pippin, but free and alive himself. Gandalf would admit that there had been nothing else he could do.

But the courage that had been awakened in him was now too strong: he could not leave his friends so easily. He wavered, groping in his pocket, and then fought with himself again; and as he did so the arm crept nearer. Suddenly resolve hardened in him, and he seized a short sword that lay beside him...."

Frodo is tested, and passes the test; and he has learned something about himself.
He thought of escaping, leaving his friends, and then tries to justify it, by thinking Gandalf would agree.
And he continues to struggle until his better self prevails. You may be certain he never forgot his first thought of escaping while leaving his friends behind.
Had Tom been with them this never would have happened.

I never meant to suggest that Bombadil would be with them at the Barrows, only that he shouldn't have let them go there at all - he should have taken them to his borders (or even Bree itself).

As to Frodo being tested, there are a couple of things which have always bothered me about what Bombadil does.
Firstly, he gives Frodo his magic rhyme, which to me is a bit of a get out of jail free card which lessens Frodo's growth.
Secondly, and more importantly, if this is to be a real test, then the hobbits must be in actual danger - the scene doesn't work otherwise - so Bombadil deliberatley places them in harm's way. He can't know whether Frodo and the others will actually survive the test. that's the reason for the tongue in cheek thread title.

And how do we square Bombadil's attention to the hobbits here with the colossal indifference which he shows to the Shire at all other times?

 

[Deimos]

Like the discussion(?) of Galadriel's shoes, or lack of them, this discussion(?) of Tom Bombadil has me alternately

OR

 

[TrackerOrc]

He said the rhyme after he'd already displayed bravery. He saw his friends in a deathlike state and that's when he remembered the rhyme.


We don't know the circumstances of this. Maggot could've gone into the Old Forest, or could have conversed with Tom over the border between his farm and the Old Forest. Drinking? 🤨 And what kind of aid would you expect him to send?

But Frodo has the rhyme 'in his back pocket', as it were, all the time. How do we know this doesn't help him face up to the Barrow wight?

Doesn't Bombadil spend the night with Maggot at his farm, eating and drinking (AB)? Gandalf helps the Shire in the Long Winter but we don't know (or need to know much in detail); could Bombadil not have sent food in the Long Winter, and maybe make the Old Forest a place of refuge from Saruman's thugs?

 

[Deimos]

But Frodo has the rhyme 'in his back pocket', as it were, all the time. How do we know this doesn't help him face up to the Barrow wight?

Doesn't Bombadil spend the night with Maggot at his farm, eating and drinking (AB)? Gandalf helps the Shire in the Long Winter but we don't know (or need to know much in detail); could Bombadil not have sent food in the Long Winter, and maybe make the Old Forest a place of refuge from Saruman's thugs?

*Reluctantly re-entering the Twilight Zone*....
OK, you are treading very near the "why didn't Gandalf/Elrond just give the Ring to the Eagles and have them fly to Mordor and drop it into Mount Doom" Quora-like inane questions.

There are rules in ME established by Eru, and they are not always openly stated or patently obvious.
That Gandalf and Tom and whomever else you think should have helped (interfered with) the Hobbits and assisted Frodo's mission, the fact that they didn't should tell you something. To wit, either they weren't able to help, or they were able to, but forbidden from doing so.

 

[Radaghast]

But Frodo has the rhyme 'in his back pocket', as it were, all the time. How do we know this doesn't help him face up to the Barrow wight?

How do we determine that it does? 🤨 The text as much as says he remembers the rhyme after attacking the Barrow-wight.

Frodo fell forward over Merry, and Merry’s face felt cold. All at once back into his mind, from which it had disappeared with the first coming of the fog, came the memory of the house down under the Hill, and of Tom singing. He remembered the rhyme that Tom had taught them. In a small desperate voice he began: Ho! Tom Bombadil! and with that name his voice seemed to grow strong: it had a full and lively sound, and the dark chamber echoed as if to drum and trumpet.

• "Fog on the Barrow-downs"

To say otherwise is to second-guess the author.

Doesn't Bombadil spend the night with Maggot at his farm, eating and drinking (AB)?

Can you cite a source for this? I don't see any indication of it in the book. The only line I see re: Maggot knowing Tom is the following:

It no longer surprised them; but he made no secret that he owed his recent knowledge largely to Farmer Maggot, whom he seemed to regard as a person of more importance than they had imagined.

• "In the House of Tom Bombadil"

Gandalf helps the Shire in the Long Winter but we don't know (or need to know much in detail); could Bombadil not have sent food in the Long Winter, and maybe make the Old Forest a place of refuge from Saruman's thugs?

I don't know but as I said before I think you're overthinking things here. Expecting tight continuity with every aspect of fictional lore is usually a vain hope. Also, you're saying Frodo is robbed for growth for being given a magical rhyme, but you also expect Tom to have provided Shire residents refuge from Saruman, which would therefore hobbits of growth. Lastly, you're convinced Tom has left the OF, but the only interaction we know of is with Farmer Maggot, his neighbor. Their interaction might be similar to that between Tim Taylor and Mr. Wilson.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Can you cite a source for this?

It's from The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. Whether it's "canon" is of course up to the individual.