Bilbo VS Frodo as ringbearers

[AaronSecret]

Who's more enduring as a ring bearer?
Would Bilbo have made it to the Mount Doom and would he have thrown the ring?
Could he have endured the entire journey?
How do you see each of them's "wearing style" and purpose of wearing the ring?
Who's more attached to the ring? Who bears the shadow more lightly? Frodo has a more difficult task because Bilbo wore it at home but Bilbo wore it for a longer time and in less unconditional circumstances. And Frodo's higher goal did serve as a fuel to endure it and shield against temptation, yet worse the curse than if just worn at home.
After all, Bilbo did give the ring to Frodo.
Frodo offered it to Galadriel but had she agreed - would he have made the Bilbo face and would he have endured handing it over, SINCE
he didn't really throw it - Gollum fell.

 

[Radaghast]

At the same general age as Frodo, yes. If the age he is at the start of The Lord of the Rings, almost certainly not. That's as far as taking the Ring to Mount Doom, of course. I don't think he'd have been any better at dropping the Ring than Frodo was, unless perhaps Gandalf were there.

 

[Idril Celebrindal]

If Bilbo were to set out to destroy the Ring after owning it for as many years as he did, I doubt that he could have gotten very far before it overcame him. It took all of his willpower to give it to Frodo, so it's hard to imagine him setting out to destroy it. If he had been simply given the Ring without owning it for a long time and then set out to destroy it I think he would have gotten a good deal of the way, maybe even to Mordor. But still, I think that either way he would not be able to bear the Ring like Frodo did. Frodo was better suited for the job. For one, the Ring came to him by inheritance, not theft (I'm not saying Bilbo did the wrong thing by taking the Ring from Gollum, I just think that it had a stronger hold on him because he chose to have it, whereas Frodo recieved it as a gift). Frodo was, in my opinion, more adventurous then Bilbo, since he often traveled on foot in the Shire, and so he was slightly prepared when the Ring came to him. Also, Biblo didn't have a loyal friend like Sam to help him along the way. Plus, Frodo was much less eager to use the Ring than Bilbo (who used it for jokes), even before he knew that it was evil.

 

[Radaghast]

Bilbo didn't take the Ring from Gollum.

 

[Idril Celebrindal]

Bilbo didn't take the Ring from Gollum.

I guess he technically did find it, but he realized that it was Gollum's after that and didn't give it back to him. Not saying that I would have done anything different if I was in Bilbo's position, just pointing out that Frodo obtained the Ring in a more honest manner than Bilbo.

 

[Ent]

1. Who's more enduring as a ring bearer?
- kind of need to define 'enduring' here. Two basic aspects. Longevity and the sense of 'suffering under pressure/pain.' Longevity of course goes to Bilbo. 'Endurance' in the sense of suffering of course goes to Frodo.

2. Would Bilbo have made it to the Mount Doom and would he have thrown the ring?
- Difficult to say - speculation. My opinion tends to "no." He wore it many more times than Frodo - and it is well noted his original possession of it included some deception for personal gain. Not telling the truth about it in the beginning, so he would 'look better' to the gang - then always wearing it to "hide himself" from those he didn't want to encounter. Selfish motives all around. Thus, his ultimate inability to 'easily' part with it - it was working on him all along.. (Note: Bilbo was, by and large, a rather 'noble' and honest fellow. But he did have a bit of a selfish strain to him, not opposed to a bit of self-centeredness from time to time. That was the ring's "hook" into him.)
. Then we need to take into account Sauron didn't know about the rings recovery for quite a few years, so his 'thought was not bent upon it.' Bilbo suffered none of the added pressure of Sauron's intensity. It's noted the ring "seemed to grow heavier" all the time Frodo bore it - and Bilbo later realized 'the ring had grown beyond him" even without wearing it again.

3. Could he have endured the entire journey?
- Given #2, my opinion would be "no." Many reasons. He was older, though still being maintained a bit by the ring. The growing "weight" of the ring would have been harder for him to bear. And too, he would have had no "Sam" - though one could speculate perhaps a Frodo would have stepped into the Sam shoes. But lastly, though Gandalf had a suspicion about this which is why when Bilbo spoke up, Gandalf denied him the offer - he wasn't the Providential choice, and without the aid of Providence, there could be no success.

4. How do you see each of them's "wearing style" and purpose of wearing the ring?
- Bilbo's 'wearing style' was generally personal and selfish. Frodos was honest, and wary, since he was fully aware of the ring, what it was, and could do. (So was Sams, both of them only putting the ring on for protection, and accomplishment of the Task.)

5. Who's more attached to the ring? Who bears the shadow more lightly? Frodo has a more difficult task because Bilbo wore it at home but Bilbo wore it for a longer time and in less unconditional circumstances. And Frodo's higher goal did serve as a fuel to endure it and shield against temptation, yet worse the curse than if just worn at home.
After all, Bilbo did give the ring to Frodo.
Frodo offered it to Galadriel but had she agreed - would he have made the Bilbo face and would he have endured handing it over, SINCE he didn't really throw it - Gollum fell.

- a number of pieces to this. My opinions: Bilbo bears the 'shadow' much more lightly, but the 'shadow' is much less a 'shadow' as Sauron's mind is not bent on it.
- Yes, Bilbo gave the ring to Frodo, but only because Gandalf's manifested 'power' at the time exceeded the ring's small hold on Bilbo.
- The same is true when Frodo offered the ring to Galadriel so impulsively. The rings hold on Frodo was lesser at that time than it ultimately became, the closer he approached to Mt. Doom. My opinion is Galadriel's power, which Sauron himself was a bit wary of, is what brought Frodo to offer the ring, and he would have given it. Even if he had a moment of the "Bilbo face" in doing so - it no doubt had a hold of some strength - he still would have turned it over - UNLESS he recalled the injuncion of his charge, "not to give it to anyone else" at the council. (In other words, a rather honorable 'meeting of the charge' might have been his guide, meaning when actually 'put to the task' of handing it over, he may have renigged on his offer to her, citing the charge as his reason. - still an 'honorable' thing, fidelity to the Charge overcoming the impuslveness of the Offer. And Galadriel would have understood it..!)

In the end of course, he was overwhelmed by the weight of the ring and failed to resist the ring's grasp - but herein lies something always having been a curious note to me..!

The "charge" he was given was never to "throw it in," The "charge" he was given was to "take the ring to mount doom" and "not to give it to anyone else." He fully succeeded in the charge he was given.

It was "providence" driving the words of the charge given, though Elrond did not know it - and it was Providence putting Gollum at Mt. Doom to carry out the actual destruction of the ring.

Frodo completely fulfilled the charge - as did Sam. The ring was ultimately simply beyond his "endurance" level, and Providence (Eru) knew that would be the case.

Some folk question whether Gollum also fulfilled some charge or other, and have raised some objection to my view previously when I shared these thoughts - and that's OK. Having pondered long, I could speak to that again, but it's not part of this question so I refrain here.

 

[Idril Celebrindal]

I guess he technically did find it, but he realized that it was Gollum's after that and didn't give it back to him. Not saying that I would have done anything different if I was in Bilbo's position, just pointing out that Frodo obtained the Ring in a more honest manner than Bilbo.

Actually, now that I think about it, the Ring's hold on you seems to be affected by the way you obtained it.
Isildur obtained the Ring by killing Sauron and avenging his father, and I'd say it had a medium hold on him.
Gollum obtained the Ring by killing his buddy, so it had a really, really strong hold on him.
Bilbo technically stole the Ring from Gollum (though I don't blame him), and it had a pretty strong hold on him.
Frodo received the Ring as an inheritance, and it didn't really have a strong hold on him until he got close to Mordor.
It seems that the Ring has a stronger hold on you if you obtain it by un-honest means, such as murder.
Or maybe I'm just imagining things.

 

[Ent]

It seems that the Ring has a stronger hold on you if you obtain it by un-honest means, such as murder.
Or maybe I'm just imagining things.

Not only the initial obtaining, but also the purposes of use. Tolkien speaks to this somewhere.

That's why Bilbo's "use" of it for personal gain and selfishness (to make himself look good in the eyes of the dwarves, and to avoid engaging with folks he didn't wakt to speak to), was detrimental, even though Sauron's thought was not yet bent upon it. The Ring itself had a bit of a 'hook' on which it could work.

 

[Radaghast]

Actually, now that I think about it, the Ring's hold on you seems to be affected by the way you obtained it.
Isildur obtained the Ring by killing Sauron and avenging his father, and I'd say it had a medium hold on him.
Gollum obtained the Ring by killing his buddy, so it had a really, really strong hold on him.
Bilbo technically stole the Ring from Gollum (though I don't blame him), and it had a pretty strong hold on him.
Frodo received the Ring as an inheritance, and it didn't really have a strong hold on him until he got close to Mordor.
It seems that the Ring has a stronger hold on you if you obtain it by un-honest means, such as murder.
Or maybe I'm just imagining things.

I don't see how Bilbo stole the Ring, even technically. He found it in the dark and it was never confirmed to him that the Ring is what Gollum was looking for. There's also the old expression, "finders keepers" to consider. And it's not like the thing was rightly Gollum's anyway. I'm also not sure how the Ring could have had a stronger hold on Bilbo than on Isildur. Bilbo's the first one to have relinquished it willingly, something Isildur could, or would, not do.

 

[Idril Celebrindal]

I don't see how Bilbo stole the Ring, even technically. He found it in the dark and it was never confirmed to him that the Ring is what Gollum was looking for. There's also the old expression, "finders keepers" to consider. And it's not like the thing was rightly Gollum's anyway. I'm also not sure how the Ring could have had a stronger hold on Bilbo than on Isildur. Bilbo's the first one to have relinquished it willingly, something Isildur could, or would, not do.

Good point about Isildur not relinquishing it, I didn't think of that. But then again, Isildur got it by killing somebody (although that somebody really deserved it), so maybe it had a stronger hold on him because of that. I don't want to argue about wether Bilbo stole the Ring or not, I just think that inheriting it is a more honest means of getting the Ring then whatever happened with Bilbo and Gollum.

 

[Ent]

I just think that inheriting it is a more honest means of getting the Ring then whatever happened with Bilbo and Gollum.

Indeed. If I 'found' something, but later discovered it belonged to someone else, I would be inclined to return it. (I'd say "most people would", but inherently, I know that's not true.)

In Bilbo's case, we see no indication he even has such a struggle. Is he among the 'majority' whose self-interest is at such a height, the thought of returning it just doesn't occur to him? Possibly. We know he's 'selfish' in other ways.

But then, we need to keep in mind the Ring is intentionally trying to depart from Gollum at this time, probably somehow sensing Sauron's resurgence in the world - though Sauron is clueless of the ring - so the ring is likely already working on Bilbo to an extent, seizing on the 'selfish streak' inherent in Bilbo.

Oh the ring, the ring... it's such a stealthy, insidious and corrupting thing..!

 

[Radaghast]

Good point about Isildur not relinquishing it, I didn't think of that. But then again, Isildur got it by killing somebody (although that somebody really deserved it), so maybe it had a stronger hold on him because of that. I don't want to argue about wether Bilbo stole the Ring or not, I just think that inheriting it is a more honest means of getting the Ring then whatever happened with Bilbo and Gollum.

Isildur is not the one who killed Sauron.

 

[Radaghast]

Not only the initial obtaining, but also the purposes of use. Tolkien speaks to this somewhere.

That's why Bilbo's "use" of it for personal gain and selfishness (to make himself look good in the eyes of the dwarves, and to avoid engaging with folks he didn't wakt to speak to), was detrimental, even though Sauron's thought was not yet bent upon it. The Ring itself had a bit of a 'hook' on which it could work.

Yes. Let's be nice to the fella who wants to eat us.

 

[CirdanLinweilin]

Not only the initial obtaining, but also the purposes of use. Tolkien speaks to this somewhere.

That's why Bilbo's "use" of it for personal gain and selfishness (to make himself look good in the eyes of the dwarves, and to avoid engaging with folks he didn't wakt to speak to), was detrimental, even though Sauron's thought was not yet bent upon it. The Ring itself had a bit of a 'hook' on which it could work.

Isn't the Ring implied to be sorta sentient?

CL

 

[Ent]

Isn't the Ring implied to be sorta sentient?

Indeed. Gandalf's words "Rings of Power look out for themselves." (or close thereto.) And somewhere else "the ring is seeking (trying?) to return to its owner." (or maker. or something.) And elsewhere as well.

Though I wouldn't exactly say it's 'sentient' I suppose. But it does exercise a certain will. It's leaving of Gollum was intentional. Sauron was reforming, and the ring was done with hiding in the cave.

(It's being 'found' by Deagol in the river, when Sauron was re-forming early on, was no accident.)

Thus, by a power greater than either Sauron or the ring, "you (Bilbo) were INTENDED to find the ring." (Providence.) Gandalf was nobodies dummy..!! And Tolkien intended Providence to be very much in the picture.

And we must take this into account as well, when we consider Bilbo's 'cover story' and lack of returning it to Gollum.

Yes. Let's be nice to the fella who wants to eat us.

At the point Gollum was wanting to eat Bilbo, he did not yet know Bilbo had the ring. Once he (Gollum) suspected, and so did Bilbo, Bilbo's response to knowing it was Gollums was NOT one of an effort to achieve piece, and still obtain a way out.

Now... it IS entirely possible Gollum would reneg on an 'agreement' to show the way out, if Bilbo gave the ring back.

But consider - Bilbo still had Sting, and could have contrived to get Gollum to show him the exist, prior to actually giving Gollum the ring.

Of course - things could have gone awry in approximately one thousand three hundred seventy six point oh-two-two-nine ways, but hey... the key point is Bilbo does not appear to have had a single moment of thought devoted to "hey, this is his. should I return it?"

(Now... I'll review all the text again, to make sure I've not missed an inkling of any such thought along the way.)

If Bilbo had kept it for other than selfish reasons, and since there is substantiation of its clearly selfish uses written into the rest of the text, I would think Tolkien would have let us know of his mental struggle with keeping it, as a part of his character development. Every character Tolkien introduced, has a very specific character profile, intention, and purpose for being there. Bilbo's uses of the ring are never demonstrated to be of 'honorable' type, except perhaps those few times he pops it on for self-preservation. Other than that, he uses the ring to avoid people, to steal things, etc. (Some argument could be made about his use of the ring to hide himself in the Woodland Elven situations, and from the spiders, and free the dwarves several times, etc. But there's really very little 'nobility' about his handling of the ring - quite opposed to Frodo's situation. And yes, I do understand their 'circumstances' are entirely different. Bilbo is just living out his daily life, happening to have a ring which he really knows nothing about - and using it to personal advantage as situations permit and he finds personally profitable - which takes many forms in his case) (If I ever geet to my "Characters of Tolkien book, we'll delve into many of Tolkien's folk.)

So yes, I would have liked to have seen SOME indication of a Bilbo who 'tried to be nice' to the one trying to eat him, in one way or another. I simply find none. Not even a hint of a thought. So from this, I develop my current perspectives.

 

[Radaghast]

Gollum already has it in mind to renege on the agreement. And by the time Bilbo figures out what the Ring can do, Gollum is well past reasoning and out for blood. Being invisible is Bilbo's only chance to get out of the Misty Mountains alive. I don't see how Bilbo can be seen to be the wicked one in this picture.

 

[Ent]

I don't see how Bilbo can be seen to be the wicked one in this picture.

There's a huge difference between "being seen as being the wicked one" and "noting Bilbo had not the least thought about a return of the ring to its owner."

Gollum is clearly wicked. Bilbo is not. Bilbo just presents as being "opportunist" in the situation.
Even if he HAD had some thought or consideration about returning the ring to Gollum, he would likely ultimately have concluded it would have been a dumb thing to do in the immediate circumstances.

Thus my comments about his needing to 'negotiate' if he went in that direction at all.

But all these 'side notes" and 'speculations' have nothing to do with what I"m talking about.

What I'm making note of, is there is absolutely no hint in the text such a thought even crosses Bilbo's mind - a grave error, if one is trying to build a character of a superlatively moral nature. Bilbo doesn't even consider it in his ruminations - and his further uses of the ring, speak to a certain self-centeredness and self-interest into the bargain.

We have Bilbo "on a pedestal" which, frankly, Tolkien never wrote him to be.on.

Is he a 'nasty, insufereable cur' ? No.

Is he somewhat representative of most folk who have done little to obtain their wealth, have been privileged in and throughout life, and largely consume themselves with making sure they can enjoy what they want to enjoy in the ways they want to enjoy it, not really being noticed as having done very much for anyone else but themselves? Yes.

Bilbo grew a great deal during his adventure. And, he needed to.

 

[Deimos]

I guess he technically did find it, but he realized that it was Gollum's after that and didn't give it back to him. Not saying that I would have done anything different if I was in Bilbo's position, just pointing out that Frodo obtained the Ring in a more honest manner than Bilbo.

Bilbo found the Ring... how much more honest do you think he could be?

 

[Ent]

Bilbo found the Ring... how much more honest do you think he could be?

Really?
Diemos, are you telling me if you "found" a $100 bill laying in an aisle in a store, and 2 minutes later as you checked out at the cash register, you discovered and overheard a person asking about a $100 bill they realized had slipped out of their pocket while shopping, you wouldn't 'consider' at the very least, returning the bill to them?

Though the specific circumstances differ, the situation in view does not.

 

[Deimos]

I wouo

Really?
Diemos, are you telling me if you "found" a $100 bill laying in an aisle in a store, and 2 minutes later as you checked out at the cash register, you discovered and overheard a person asking about a $100 bill they realized had slipped out of their pocket while shopping, you wouldn't 'consider' at the very least, returning the bill to them?

Though the specific circumstances differ, the situation in view does not.

I would if your example dealt with apples and apples, but it doesn't.... It's an "apples and oranges" example.
That is, the conditions you set up are not similar to the conditions (or parameters) in the story.
The person who lost the $100 is someone very much like myself.... 1) human and 2) has an income (from some source) such that he has a $100 bill to lose in he first place. That is, your example posits both parties as being very similar both as "people" and of somewhat similar in their material possessions (or means).

1) There is no way Bilbo thought Gollum as someone like himself. It was Gandalf who observed that Bilbo and Gollum both had, in the distant past, similar ancestry.
2) There is no way that Bilbo, having surveyed Gollum's dreary surroundings, and taking stock of Gollum's person, would ever conclude that he (Gollum) came to legitimately possess a gold ring. At best, he might conclude that if Gollum came to possess the ring, it was by finding it, just as he (Bilbo) did.