Bilbo VS Frodo as ringbearers

[Ent]

@Deimos, while we disagree regarding the 'situation' vs. the 'circumstances' issue, (the situation is exactly the same - a loss, and a discovery of former ownership - very apples and apples) - the circumstances do factor more than I have given them credit for.

Bilbo has both ample and extreme circumstantial evidence Gollum means him no good, well BEFORE he realizes Gollum was the former 'owner' of the ring, however he came to acquire it.

I recall the sequence of Gollum 'returning to the island to get something' then screaming about it's being lost - and something about Bilbo's realizing the 'lost item' was the ring.

These circumstances must be given significant weight into the situation, and give ample explanation for why Bilbo isn't even noted as giving a whit's thought to a return of the ring to the wretched 'creature.'

I don't personally suspect he would have had any thoughts or considerations about how Gollum may or may not have come by the ring to begin with, nor whether those considerations would have weighed with him even if he had. His peril was evident to him by the time he knew 'the truth of the matter' with regard to the ring and Gollum. And, he didn't even know what the ring was capable of at that point yet - just that Gollum very much wanted it, and he had it.

Doesn't excuse or change his future selfish (and mildly deceitful) employments of the ring - we've still got him on a bit higher pedestal than he merits perhaps - but then again, to him it was just a 'convenient bobble,' not something of peril to the entire free peoples of the world.

I suspect we all have 'convenient bobbles' we don't want people to know about, and use them just in ways beneficial to ourselves. (Like not wanting to engage with certain people - and sadly, wanting to make up stories (lie) to either make ourselves look better, or prevent revealing the 'real truth' - both of which Bilbo engaged in - and ended up apologizing for with regard to at least the Gollum incident, at the Council of Elrond later. Maybe ours are not wanting people to know how much money we may have, or where we may live, or if we have a large predilection toward benefitting others with our resources lest we become targets of 'opportunists' etc. A lottery winner not wanting the world, and especially perhaps some of the family, to know, comes to mind.)

Thank you for bringing me into a reconsideration and review of the circumstances again..!
Very worthwhile.

p.s. - both Bilbo and Gollum used the ring to 'hide from people.' Gollum did so, to his own people, for purposes nefarious and cruel. Bilbo, just out of personal self-interest and self-satisfaction, but without 'overt' injury or harm to others (for the most part.)

 

[Radaghast]

There's a huge difference between "being seen as being the wicked one" and "noting Bilbo had not the least thought about a return of the ring to its owner."

Gollum is clearly wicked. Bilbo is not. Bilbo just presents as being "opportunist" in the situation.
Even if he HAD had some thought or consideration about returning the ring to Gollum, he would likely ultimately have concluded it would have been a dumb thing to do in the immediate circumstances.

Thus my comments about his needing to 'negotiate' if he went in that direction at all.

But all these 'side notes" and 'speculations' have nothing to do with what I"m talking about.

What I'm making note of, is there is absolutely no hint in the text such a thought even crosses Bilbo's mind - a grave error, if one is trying to build a character of a superlatively moral nature. Bilbo doesn't even consider it in his ruminations - and his further uses of the ring, speak to a certain self-centeredness and self-interest into the bargain.

We have Bilbo "on a pedestal" which, frankly, Tolkien never wrote him to be.on.

Is he a 'nasty, insufereable cur' ? No.

Is he somewhat representative of most folk who have done little to obtain their wealth, have been privileged in and throughout life, and largely consume themselves with making sure they can enjoy what they want to enjoy in the ways they want to enjoy it, not really being noticed as having done very much for anyone else but themselves? Yes.

Bilbo grew a great deal during his adventure. And, he needed to.

No, Bilbo never thinks of returning the Ring, and there's no reason he should or feel morally obligated to at the time, when he's trying to stay alive. As far as feeling privileged and being part of the upper class, I don't think that has any bearing on his life-or-death situation in the underground caverns of the Misty Mountains. Entitlement doesn't come into it.

There is also Gandalf's assertion "that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker." So, Bilbo's alleged appropriation of the Ring is endorsed by none other than Eru himself.

 

[Deimos]

...

Is he somewhat representative of most folk who have done little to obtain their wealth, have been privileged in and throughout life, and largely consume themselves with making sure they can enjoy what they want to enjoy in the ways they want to enjoy it, not really being noticed as having done very much for anyone else but themselves? Yes.

Bilbo grew a great deal during his adventure. And, he needed to.

Really? IIRC Bilbo was known for, among other virtues, his generosity.

 

[Radaghast]

Really? IIRC Bilbo was known for, among other virtues, his generosity.

Yeah, after all he accommodates Gandalf and the Dwarves in his home even though he wasn't expecting them and is quite put out by it.

 

[Ent]

@Radaghast and @Deimos - I will check on that.
But we certainly can't say he 'accommodated the dwarves' willingly.

I'm suire he was generous, and 'loved to entertain guests' when it suited him. But there were also those he went out of his way to avoid.

I'm not trying to draw a picture that says "Bilbo is ALWAYS this way, or ALWAYS that way." None of us are.

Bilbo was situational, and opportunistic, and his uses of the ring were predominantly purely for some 'selfl-indulgence.'

As to his "upper class" situation spoken to, I'm not saying it has any bearing on the Gollum encounter whatsoever. It relates to his overall 'character profile.'

Perhaps I'm expressing things about Bilbo and that whole scenario not being understood here. (even though one's 'general character provile' can NEVER be left out of what they may do, or how they may behave, in any given circumstance.)

Goodness, I'm trying to speak to his overall 'character' with some of this, and its relation to why I derive the perspsectives I derive.

If we want to isolate things to a narrower field, just et me know... but if one is going to ask an opinion about something, then when it comes to Bilbo vs. Frodo as ringbearers, we are talking two entirely different 'character profiles' and two entirely different 'sets of circumstances' in virtually every respect that could possibly exist.

(This is why I rarely share my thoughts any more. It just takes too much effort to broaden the perspective.)

 

[Radaghast]

@Radaghast and @Deimos - I will check on that.
But we certainly can't say he 'accommodated the dwarves' willingly.

How willing would you be to serve uninvited guests? Especially 14 uninvited guests?

Not really seeing any self-indulgence in Bilbo. In the book he only ever uses the Ring for good. And never uses it to harm anyone.

 

[Ent]

In the book he only ever uses the Ring for good.

No problem. We can agree to disagree on this.
The primary "good" he gets out of usiong the ring to avoid people, is entirely self-centered. (And this is my point.) He has not done those he avoided any good whatsoever.

And never uses it to harm anyone.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Would all depend on whether all the times he avoided people he didn't want to talk to, nothing 'bad' or 'harmful' came to them because of it. He will never know.

 

[Radaghast]

No problem. We can agree to disagree on this.
The primary "good" he gets out of usiong the ring to avoid people, is entirely self-centered. (And this is my point.) He has not done those he avoided any good whatsoever.

I said in the book, i.e. The Hobbit, he only uses it for good. Avoiding people is not self-centered. It's simply avoiding people you don't wish to interact with.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. Would all depend on whether all the times he avoided people he didn't want to talk to, nothing 'bad' or 'harmful' came to them because of it. He will never know.

I don't see how there's any grey area here. Either he harmed people or he didn't and I can't see any reason for thinking he did. Avoiding people doesn't harm them.

 

[Ent]

Avoiding people is not self-centered. It's simply avoiding people you don't wish to interact with.

We can agree to disagree.

harmed people

Harm takes many forms.

 

[Deimos]

....
Is he somewhat representative of most folk who have done little to obtain their wealth, have been privileged in and throughout life, and largely consume themselves with making sure they can enjoy what they want to enjoy in the ways they want to enjoy it, not really being noticed as having done very much for anyone else but themselves? Yes.

@Radaghast and @Deimos - I will check on that.

As to his "upper class" situation spoken to, I'm not saying it has any bearing on the Gollum encounter whatsoever. It relates to his overall 'character profile.'

Wow... some weighty assumptions here....
So he is somewhat representative of most folk who have done little to obtain their wealth, have been privileged in and throughout life, and largely consume themselves with making sure they can enjoy what they want to enjoy in the ways they want to enjoy it, not really being noticed as having done very much for anyone else but themselves.
And this description relates to his overall 'character profile.

Stereotyping at its finest.

So, again , let's play the Substitution Game.
He is somewhat representative of most folk who have obtained their wealth by their own merit, have been raised in materially deprived circumstances, been scorned throughout life, and largely consume themselves with making sure others can enjoy what they themselves originally did not, being noticed as having done so much for anyone but themselves. ...It relates to his overall "character profile'.

Possessing "unearned wealth" no more makes a person self-centered than being poor makes him virtuous.
And the "most" qualifier does not alter that.

 

[Ent]

Stereotyping at its finest.

Hum. Perhaps. yet as has been said elsewhere, Tolkien developed each of his characters as representative of certain things, and types.
To be sure, every author does this, if they want their characters to be 'believable.'

"A character profile is a detailed description of a fictional character that includes their background, personality, and other characteristics. It's a reference tool for writers to help them create consistent and realistic characters."
Character profiles can include:

• Physical appearance: The character's name, age, and physical description
• Personality: The character's personality traits, values, likes, and dislikes
• Background: The character's origins, history, and what events shaped them
• Relationships: The character's friends, family, and potential love interests
  Motivations: What the character wants, what their needs and desires are, and what keeps them motivated
  Speech pattern: Whether the character has an accent, uses big words, or has a stutter
  Habits: Whether the character has any ticks or habits, such as blinking a lot when they lie

Bilbo's behaviors as depicted in Tolkien's writing fit the character he developed for him.

Bilbo "inherited his wealth" (he did not work for it), has no known occupation, and exhibits selfish tendencies here and there. I can't help that. I can only take note of it.
"he was a respectable person" due to his wealth and position - though the Bagginses were not as wealthy as others - "and you could tell what a Baggins would say on any matter without the need to ask them."

So the Baggins clan was also very much "stuck in a rut."

I'm not trying to make Bilbo out as being a 'bad guy'. But when we compare Bilbo to Frodo we're truly comparing apples and oranges. Just as we are trying to compare Bilbo or Frodo to Sam - who also very much fits a "character profile" by the way - as does Lovelia Sackville-Baggins.

Call it 'stereotyping' if you will - there is a certain amount of that in every character, and every person looking at any person at any instant in any life. Neither Tolkien, myself, Deimos, or anyone else, is free from a certain element of 'stereotyping.'

Really expert 'stereotypers' are well paid and employed as character analyzers for the Police departments, and others make tremendous authors, due to the 'believability' of their characters.

So whether I'mstereotyping or not, I must maintain my evaluation of Bilbo in the realm of the behaviors he exhibits and we can see, tending to show a bit of a streak of selfishness.

I'm just not sure why this is a surprise to anyone, given what Tolkien has written about him.

Again, am I saying Bilbo is a 'bad guy' ? Absolutely not. But I AM saying it's a better thing for Frodo to be the ring-bearer during the tough times, than for Bilbo to be... and not just because Bilbo was old.

There's a REASON Providdence (Eru) prepared Bilbo to be the Ring-finder, and built Frodo to do be the ring-bearer in 'the tougher stuff' needing to be done.

(And built Sam to be what he was into the bargain - though we see Tolkien showing us some more things about prejudice etc. along the way, as well. Sam is also VERY representative of a certain 'stereotype'... a well developed character analysis indeed.)

I won't be saying any more on the issue. Feel free to respond as you wish, and I'll be happy to read your thoughts.
But I don't know what else I can say in distinguishing a comparison of "Bilbo and Frodo as ring-bearers."
Bilbo could not have succeeded - he had too much in him susceptible to the ring's influence - more so than Frodo..

Yet Bilbo was entrrely suitabele and suited to be the ring-finder,and in his particuilar way, to "keep the ring hidden and keep it safe" until Frodo was prepared and fitted out to finish the task at the right time.

 

[Radaghast]

Bilbo "inherited his wealth" (he did not work for it), has no known occupation, and exhibits selfish tendencies here and there. I can't help that. I can only take note of it.

Take note of what, though? I've yet to see any concrete examples of Bilbo's selfishness and causing harm.

 

[Ent]

I've yet to see any concrete examples of Bilbo's selfishness and causing harm.

I cannot 'prove' he caused harm.

However, given he used the ring for these things at least:
1. Deceive the Dwarves at the beginning so he could "look better" in their eyes;
2. Hide from people he preferred not to encounter;
3. Sneak in and steal the wallet of a Troll (again, so he could look better to the Dwarves, and in the end, to the troll's ultimate harm, by the way as he had no business trying to steal from them)
well, if you don't see these as inherently a bit 'selfish' in nature at the least, I can't help that. They are.

 

[Ent]

@Radaghast - just as an addition:

I don't think it was I who originally said Bilbo caused anyone 'harm'. He certainly never physically 'harmed' anyone, if we want to be so limited as to think 'harm' is only physical. Harm was mentioned by someone else. As I recall, I merely pointed out 'harm' comes in a number of ways, and ignoring or avoiding people wanting to talk to me, MAY ultimately cause them harm - and certainly, stealing someone's wallet is harming them, even if the wallet is empty of cash or credit cards.

Bilbo was, as many are, an 'opportunist' in these cases. It was more important to him to 'look good' to the Dwarves, than it was to consider theft of another's possessions.
And it was more important to him to fulfill his personal preference not to talk to somebody, than it was for him be sure whether there was something he coiuld help them with.

But I'm well aware not all people hold the same view of what "selfishness" is as I do. My standard is relatively high in terms of what is acceptable behavior, and what is not - mostly because my standard has become one not formerly my own.

 

[Radaghast]

I cannot 'prove' he caused harm.

However, given he used the ring for these things at least:
1. Deceive the Dwarves at the beginning so he could "look better" in their eyes;

No, it was to keep the Ring his secret. This is selfish, sure, but not in terms of puffing up his own image. It was to keep his fancy new bauble secret, an effect of said bauble.

2. Hide from people he preferred not to encounter;

Still not seeing how this is selfish. Is one obligated to encounter people they don't like?

3. Sneak in and steal the wallet of a Troll (again, so he could look better to the Dwarves, and in the end, to the troll's ultimate harm, by the way as he had no business trying to steal from them)
well, if you don't see these as inherently a bit 'selfish' in nature at the least, I can't help that. They are.

Seriously? 🤨First off, he didn't have the Ring at the time. Second, he was pushed by the Dwarves to scout the trolls. He was trying to fulfill his end of his bargain (that was made for him) with the Dwarves (who unfairly and unrealistically expected him to know bird calls). Also, we're defending the rights of trolls now? Like the trolls rightfully came by all their loot?

@Radaghast - just as an addition:

I don't think it was I who originally said Bilbo caused anyone 'harm'. He certainly never physically 'harmed' anyone, if we want to be so limited as to think 'harm' is only physical. Harm was mentioned by someone else. As I recall, I merely pointed out 'harm' comes in a number of ways, and ignoring or avoiding people wanting to talk to me, MAY ultimately cause them harm - and certainly, stealing someone's wallet is harming them, even if the wallet is empty of cash or credit cards.

Bilbo was, as many are, an 'opportunist' in these cases. It was more important to him to 'look good' to the Dwarves, than it was to consider theft of another's possessions.
And it was more important to him to fulfill his personal preference not to talk to somebody, than it was for him be sure whether there was something he coiuld help them with.

But I'm well aware not all people hold the same view of what "selfishness" is as I do. My standard is relatively high in terms of what is acceptable behavior, and what is not - mostly because my standard has become one not formerly my own.

The people who he avoided were not very nice people. Entitled relatives believe Bilbo owed them something. In any case can you prove any sort of harm in this case? Such assertions should have some evidence to support them.

 

[Ent]

First off, he didn't have the Ring at the time.

Thank you for demonstrating Bilbo had a natural streak to do a little 'puffing' even before the Ring.
Proves my point precisely, in my own view.

And now, I'm done with this (publicly). I'll review the full text to insure what I'm pretty certain I read is really there, and if I need to change my perspective, I will surely do so.

Meanwhile, @Curufin has shared some thoughts in a totally separate environment giving me some perspective on a different viewpoint I will probe in relation to this as well.


Meanwhile, I might just say the below comment still concerns me a little bit - but that part isn't my issue to deal with.

Still not seeing how this is selfish. Is one obligated to encounter people they don't like?

 

[Ent]

Well - I lied. I feel somewhat compelled to add a couple things - with special view to Bilbo and the Trolls, then Bilbo and his rejoining them after the Riddles in the Dark.

First: when he 'was sent off to find out" about the situation, his charge was simply "You must go on and find out all about that light, and what it is for, and if all is perfectly safe and canny." Then "...come back quick if you can..." &c. That was ALL his charge was.

Yet soon we read Bilbo's thoughts: "-- and yet somehow he could not go straight back to Thorin and Company emptyhanded."
His inner struggle here is entirely one of wanting to "look good" in front of the Dwarves.

Now, he's come out of the cave after the Riddle Game. He still has the ring on. He spies the Dwarves and Gandalf, and seeing them discussiong him, what is his thought? 'I will give them a surprise.' As they continue to argue, he makes his 'surprise, triumphal entry' with "And here's the burglar!" Then we read "my, how they jumped" - and "It is a fact that Bilbo's reputation went up a very great deal with the dwarves after this."

AFTERWARD we read his musings: "Bilbo was so pleased with their praise that he just chuckled and said nothing whatever about the ring; and when they asked him how he did it..." he invented his lie.

This too, is completely selfish and dishonest.

So both somewhat before, and immediately after, Bilbo's encountering the ring, we see selfishness, then selfishness compounded by a self-centered lie.

I would address the issue of "the people he encountered not being very nice people" - but even if I did, I don't think we'd have any 'agreement' - my own perspective is "two wrongs don't make a rignt" and just because I encounter someone I'm not fond of or don't really like, or know them to be 'not very nice', I won't avoid them. Common courtesy suggests to me I should give it a nip, give them a chance to let me know if they need something of me I'm willing to fulfill, and be honest with them if I'm not, or can't.

But again, that's just me.

I'll leave it all at this... no more from the Ent on it.

Fortunately, it does have direct bearing on the thread: Bilbo vs. Frodo as ringbearers - or I would say we've taken the thread off-track.

Thanks for your thoughts on the matter. I'll continue working on it, as I've got Bilbo and Frodo both on my plate of "Tolkien's Characters" to write about... and this has helped me insure I've not missed anything much - though I'm certain I've missed some - with regard to certain of the things to be dealt with.

 

[Radaghast]

Well - I lied. I feel somewhat compelled to add a couple things - with special view to Bilbo and the Trolls, then Bilbo and his rejoining them after the Riddles in the Dark.

First: when he 'was sent off to find out" about the situation, his charge was simply "You must go on and find out all about that light, and what it is for, and if all is perfectly safe and canny." Then "...come back quick if you can..." &c. That was ALL his charge was.

Yet soon we read Bilbo's thoughts: "-- and yet somehow he could not go straight back to Thorin and Company emptyhanded."
His inner struggle here is entirely one of wanting to "look good" in front of the Dwarves.

They hired him. He was trying to prove himself. You're spinning that into a bad thing, somehow.

AFTERWARD we read his musings: "Bilbo was so pleased with their praise that he just chuckled and said nothing whatever about the ring; and when they asked him how he did it..." he invented his lie.

This too, is completely selfish and dishonest.

What would you have him do? Pass the Ring around? Also, it's the One Ring, which negatively influences behavior.

 

[Ent]

He was trying to prove himself.

Yes. Unnecessarily and selfishly, at great risk not just to himself, but to all - and their mission.

Pass the Ring around?

Of course not. But lieing is not appropriate either.

the One Ring, which negatively influences behavior.

Yes. And has all the more potency when there's something it can get its "hooks" into to begin with.
Thus the importance of his having shown a bit of a self-indulgent streak before he had its possession.

Tolkien made no mistakes in his character development.

He 'considered every word'.

Bilbo is a 'great guy', and for his possession of the ring and handling it in accordance with Eru's wishes as long as he did, he was given great recognition and was well rewarded.

Unfortonately, as I compare him to Frodo as a ringbearer, I need to point out those things presenting 'issues' with Bilbo being suitable as a vessel to take the ring on the entire journey through Mordor - not just physically, but - sorry to say - in my view and understanding of the ring, morally as well.

(a point I won't explain more fully here.)

Sir Radaghast, let's just agree to disagree here., OK?
Thank you..

Neither of us is 'right or wrong' - it's all 'interpretive' and based on many things.

 

[Radaghast]

Just asking you to show your work is all.