Was Ulmo a match maker?

[Ricardo]

I was thinking of Gondolin, Turgon, Tuor, Idril, Earendil and Ulmo's purpose.



The thing is, officially, Ulmo sent Tuor to Gondolin to warn Turgon that he should leave the city and march south.



But was that his real purpose? or just an excuse to get Tuor to Gondolin?



Think about it, if Turgon had followed Ulmo's advice, an entire city would have headed south. Morgoth would have surely know that and we know what would have happened. Even if Turgon managed to get help of all remaining elves and men, they would be powerless to face Morgoth.



Sending messengers to the Valar? Turgon tried before, Voronwe was actually one of those messengers.



Turgon refused (and if you ask me, he was right) but, Tuor met Idril. They fell in love, married and have Earendil, exactly a marriage made in heaven because Earendil would represent the 2 races.



Of course, they also needed Elwing to get there with the silmaril, not sure if Ulmo would know that but he also had a role in protecting Finrod so he would help Beren.



I don't know if it was in Tolkien's mind, but funny enough, 2 love stories were the downfall of Morgoth, I don't know if there is a hidden message there, that love can defeat evil but in short, that's what happened.

meant to say Was Ulmo a match maker. Don't know how to edit the title.

 

[Eljorahir]

Even if Turgon managed to get help of all remaining elves and men, they would be powerless to face Morgoth.

Sadly, Ulmo's full advice to Turgon was left out of the published Silmarillion. Ulmo really wanted Turgon and the people of Gondolin to gather allies and go forth to war and victory against Morgoth.

This is from The Fall of Gondolin, The Tale Told in the Quenta Noldorinwa...

"...a message he [Ulmo] gave him [Tuor] to bear...unto Turgon, bidding him to prepare for war, and battle with Morgoth ere all was lost; and to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men...unto his banners...for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs. Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed...A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, but victory if Turgon would dare it, the breaking of Morgoth's power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more. But if Turgon would not go forth to this war, then he should abandon Gondolin and lead his people down Sirion...But in this counsel there was danger more dire than in the other, though so it might not seem; and grievous thereafter would be the fate of the Hither Lands."

So, in summary:

Ulmo advice #1: go forth to war and victory and all will be right with the world.
Ulmo advice #2: If you're too chicken to follow advice #1 then abandon Gondolin and retreat down Sirion, but the world will still have problems afterwords.

Of course, Turgon chooses to follow neither of #1 nor #2 and the world suffers because of his choice.

Feel free to let me know if I'm mistaken in any of the above.

 

[Ricardo]

Sadly, Ulmo's full advice to Turgon was left out of the published Silmarillion. Ulmo really wanted Turgon and the people of Gondolin to gather allies and go forth to war and victory against Morgoth.

This is from The Fall of Gondolin, The Tale Told in the Quenta Noldorinwa...

"...a message he [Ulmo] gave him [Tuor] to bear...unto Turgon, bidding him to prepare for war, and battle with Morgoth ere all was lost; and to send again his messengers into the West. Summons too should he send into the East and gather, if he might, Men...unto his banners...for without mortal Men the Elves shall not prevail against the Balrogs and the Orcs. Nor should the feud with the sons of Feanor be left unhealed...A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, but victory if Turgon would dare it, the breaking of Morgoth's power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more. But if Turgon would not go forth to this war, then he should abandon Gondolin and lead his people down Sirion...But in this counsel there was danger more dire than in the other, though so it might not seem; and grievous thereafter would be the fate of the Hither Lands."

So, in summary:

Ulmo advice #1: go forth to war and victory and all will be right with the world.
Ulmo advice #2: If you're too chicken to follow advice #1 then abandon Gondolin and retreat down Sirion, but the world will still have problems afterwords.

Of course, Turgon chooses to follow neither of #1 nor #2 and the world suffers because of his choice.

Feel free to let me know if I'm mistaken in any of the above.

I have read The Fall of Gondolin, and you are right, Ulmo gave Turgon 2 options and Turgon didn't follow either.

However, any of those option would have been bad and Ulmo surely knew that.

Even if Turgon could get the help of all elves, men and dwarves in Beleriand, that wouldn't have been enough to defeat Morgoth, not without the help of the Valar. At that stage, the elves were the weakest they had ever been and Morgoth the strongest and, the doom of the Noldor still hanged. Mandos said they could not defeat Morgoth and Feanor sensed they couldn't when he was dying.

Going to the mouths of Sirion with such a large crowd would have been suicidal. No way Morgoth wouldn't notice and would have been very easy for him to attack in the open.

And there is Hour's foresight when he set with Hurin to protect Turgon's retreat. He told Turgon that Turgon needed to flee to safety in Gondolin and resist a bit longer, because from them 2 would come the defeat of Morgoth. That prove to be prophetic as Huor's son, Tuor would marry Turgon's daughter, Idril and Earendil was born. Even the tragic destruction of Gondolin seems a matter of fate, as if they hadn't left the city, Earendil would have never gone to the mouths of Sirion and met Elwing and the silmaril. So matching Tuor and Idril was a must but Tuor couldn't just show up in Gondolin and tell Turgon "I like your daughter, can I marry her?"

While Ulmo might not have been aware of every detail, he was clearly following a carefully orchestrated plan, maybe each step was inspired by Iluvatar directly. After all, Ulmo was the best suited to carry it on because he still had power in Middle Earth and was the only Vala that did not abandon the elves and men in Beleriand.

I might add that Morgoth was defeated in the war of the wrath by a mighty army, far stronger than anything Turgon could muster. Included the Vanyar and Noldor of Aman, who have lived in the blessed realm all the time the Noldor were exiled, with weapons surely forged by Aule or under Aule's directions, along with Maiar, eagles and even possibly some Valar getting involved directly (Tulkas and Orome come to mind). With all that might, the battle wasn't decided until Earendil slew Ancalagon with the help of the eagles, and nearly all Beleriand was destroyed in the war.

There was no way Turgon could have an army that powerful.

 

[Eljorahir]

I might add that Morgoth was defeated in the war of the wrath by a mighty army, far stronger than anything Turgon could muster. Included the Vanyar and Noldor of Beleriand, who have lived in the blessed realm all the time the Noldor were exiled, with weapons surely forged by Aule or under Aule's directions, along with Maiar, eagles and even possibly some Valar getting involved directly (Tulkas and Orome come to mind). With all that might, the battle wasn't decided until Earendil slew Ancalagon with the help of the eagles, and nearly all Beleriand was destroyed in the war.

There was no way Turgon could have an army that powerful.

Yes, I suppose I don't disagree with anything you say above. In spite of how enticing this line is, I'm probably placing too much weight on Ulmo's "advice #1"...
A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, but victory if Turgon would dare it, the breaking of Morgoth's power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.

Squaring this advice with the rest of the tale we know is probably not possible. If memory serves, I believe this was written in 1926 (maybe too early to expect it to fit in neatly.)

 

[d4rk3lf]

I might add that Morgoth was defeated in the war of the wrath by a mighty army, far stronger than anything Turgon could muster....

There was no way Turgon could have an army that powerful.

Maybe Ulmo would give him a hand?
Out of all Valars, Ulmo seems to me that he is pretty autonomous... and second in power... so if Turgon followed his advice, Ulmo might be able to even twist the curse of Noldors, give Turgon a hand, and Morgoth could be defeated...
I say.. maybe...
Just speculating here.

 

[Ricardo]

Maybe Ulmo would give him a hand?
Out of all Valars, Ulmo seems to me that he is pretty autonomous... and second in power... so if Turgon followed his advice, Ulmo might be able to even twist the curse of Noldors, give Turgon a hand, and Morgoth could be defeated...
I say.. maybe...
Just speculating here.

First, Ulmo was just discreetly helping since Manwe had forbidden the Valar or Maiar from getting involved.He couldn't get involved in an open war.

Second, I don't think with just Ulmo's help they would defeat Morgoth, as powerful as he was, fighting wasn't his thing (more Tulkas and to a degree Orome). And his power was in the water, seas, rivers, streams, lakes, it would have been of little issue near Angband.

Yes, I suppose I don't disagree with anything you say above. In spite of how enticing this line is, I'm probably placing too much weight on Ulmo's "advice #1"...
A terrible and mortal strife he foretold, but victory if Turgon would dare it, the breaking of Morgoth's power, and the healing of feuds, and friendship between Men and Elves, whereof the greatest good should come into the world, and the servants of Morgoth trouble it no more.

Squaring this advice with the rest of the tale we know is probably not possible. If memory serves, I believe this was written in 1926 (maybe too early to expect it to fit in neatly.)

Yes, the fall of Gondolin I believe is that earliest story that Tolkien wrote and he didn't make too many changes to it. Maybe by the time this was written the whole idea of the doom of the Noldor and the story of Earendil weren't fully develop and probably it's why Christopher Tolkien excluded the options from the Silmarillion.

 

[Idril Celebrindal]

I don't think Ulmo was a match maker. I mean, even if he somehow managed to light a match underwater, what would he use it for?

 

[Ricardo]

Well, when I started this thread it was just out of my head, pure speculation based on trying to make sense of Ulmo's actions.

but there seems to be support for my theory. This is from The Peoples of Middle Earth, some late languages essays from Tolkien where he also extends many stories, especially related to the descendants of Finwe

"Eärendil had this name as father-name, and as mother-name he was called Ardamírë. In this case both names were ‘prophetic’. Tuor in his long journey by the west shores of Beleriand, after his escape from captivity, had been visited by the great Vala Ulmo in person, and Ulmo had directed him to seek for Gondolin, foretelling that if he found it he would there beget a son ever afterwards renowned as a mariner."

Notice that this isn't in the published Silmarillion, mostly because Christopher Tolkien found them too late, but it comes to make sense of Ulmo's action that for me weren't that clear in the Silmarillion.