The Two Glorfindels!!

Moonbeams · Dec 19, 2001

Glorfindel

This is a question that has been bothering me for some time, and I can't seem to find a good enough answer anywhere. Since you all know Tolkiens work, some better than I do, help me find the truth, if it can be found.

There is Glorfindel, helping Frodo in FotR. Frodo sees him as one of most powerful elven lords, when he is crossinginto darkness and dissapearing.
There is Glorfindel in Sil, defending Gondolin, and dying there.

Are they the same person?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but elves can be reborn? I remember reading that somewhere. So, can you find something that says Glorfindel came back from the dead to ME, or something that says this is a completley different Glorfindel.

I think that maybe he is the same person. Simply because Tolkien had a huge imagination, and could invent a new name if he wanted to, but he choose to call them both Glorfindel. Then, maybe, they both are the same Glorfindel...
What do you think?

Grond · Dec 19, 2001

Different folks, same name.

Aredhel · Dec 19, 2001

I have asked that same question, only to myself, after reading the Fellowship. I have often wondered at that, and maybe someone can help us to answer it...?

Greymantle · Dec 19, 2001

Same guy... my favorite character, as a matter of fact. I'm going to go find my backup for this, and edit in the URL.
_

Ah yes, here it is. Thanks again to The Grey Havens. What it essentially says is yes, they're the same guy, but this was unplanned by Tolkien. At first, it was a simple accident of using the same name, but in his normal style, he found a way of justifying it.
http://tolkien.cro.net/elves/glorfind.html

Grond · Dec 19, 2001

My apologies. I didn't know that JRRT allowed the Eldar to return from the Halls of Mandos. My assumption was based on the fact the Glorfindel died while fighting the balrog. Live and learn, as they say.

Moonbeams · Dec 19, 2001

Thank you for that link, Greymantle. I belive it solves my question.

Cian · Dec 19, 2001

That link is a little outdated, as Tolkiens essays were indeed eventualy published in a later volume of HoMe (PoMe)

Yep, we can trust Christopher there, as JRRTs latest thoughts on the matter generally seem to be that Glorfindel was a reluctant exile, a Noldo with kinship and allegiance to Turgon, and had no part in the kinslaying of Alqualondë ~ was slain, ultimately reincarnated and returned to Middle-earth. A nice detail is his relationship with a certain Olórin during his sojourn in Aman.

pgt · Dec 29, 2001

Where the @#%! was Glorfindel!!!

This one has always bothered me. Every time I read ROTK at the point that the band of northern Dunedain along with Elronds sons catch up to Aragorn, I'm shocked Glorfindel isn't among them if not leading them.

Did not Aragorn and old Glor meet like long time friends if not brothers near the ford? Was not Glor an elf lord and warrior of old from the Simarilion? Was he not able to face The Nine?

And yet, when Elronds own sons head south to help - where is he to be found? Hanging out in Rivendell?

Maybe I missed something, maybe he went to the havens the week before. Can someone help me out with an explanation of this or am I just full of wishfull thinking here?

PS: I really think Elrond could have sent a few companies. I found myself a tad disappointed a little more aide from Rivendell didn't arrive except for the 2 brothers, Glorfindel being notably absent.

Grond · Dec 29, 2001

IMHO, and opinion only, the Eldar had decided that the Ring was a matter of man and not of elves. Man had the chance to destroy it and did not and hence the elves had not the force nor the desire to take part in the war. The sons of Elrond came because they were half-elven and I think would fight orcs anywhere in ME. They hated orcs and hunted them all the time in retribution for the damage inflicted upon their mother Celebrian by the orcs of the Misty Mountains.

Warning Warning Warning.... This is Grond's opinion only. It is not based upon facts from the movie or the book. It is his opinion and no one elses.

pgt · Dec 30, 2001

Fair enough. There may not be a definitive answer here so all we'll have is opinions. As to Elronds sons weren't they related to Aragorn to boot!

To you point, the Eldar were hightailing it outa there and everything was an issue for man by default, ring included.
But don't forget, the elves of Lorien were involved in a fairly significant military exercise of their own during the war of the ring. Granted it was defensive at first. Same goes for Thanduil's crew up north (though I'm not sure I always seem to seriously include them with the Eldar in my mind, Logolas excepted).

BUT Glorfindal personally went to help Aragorn and the Ringbearer on the road to Rivendell. He had a very personal relationship with Aragorn. His presence in Rohan with the others from the North would have been in support of Aragorn and not directly helping the ringbearer. Besides Elrond outranked Glorfindel (at least in Rivendell) and personally hosted and 'steered' the whole ring quest. And Elrond adviced Aragorn and was aware of the potential relationship between him and his own daughter. Therefore I contend there is no logical reason for Glorfindel to not have come down and hung w/ the future king. Further I think this was a fluke (hope this isn't sacrilige!) of the author!

Something was started in the character development of Glor in the 1st book but it wasn't followed up on in a blatant opportunity in the 3rd book. Glorfindel actually had speaking lines and all in the 1st book.

Comments?

====

PS: on an unrelated topic, how did Elrond select Legolas anyway? I doubt he had ever met Legolas prior to the big powwow. He had plenty of noble and capable elves right in Rivendell (we met one and others were mentioned). In fact I never felt like there was much of ANY relationship between Rivendell and N. Mirkwood prior to the big powwow. Then sudenly out of nowhere Elrond gives the token elf slot to an 'outsider' elf? (maybe he just figured it was a suicide mission - just kidding!!!) I like Legolas - I really do - heckuva horsemen (did they have horses up in the forest?), heckuva mariner, having again grown up in the woods. But that bow of his was oh so wicked. 'nuff rambing

Curufin · Dec 30, 2001

There are two Glorfindels in Tolkiens books. The one in Imladris and the one in Gondolin

Obbit Trifill · Dec 30, 2001

If his full name was Art

Glorfindel, maybe he was looking for his friend Paul Simondel and he forgot about the battle. It happens.

Snaga · Dec 30, 2001

Hooray for the ignore facility!!!

I suspect that Glorfindel will have either remained in Rivendell, or gone to Lorien. Lorien was assaulted 3 times from Dol Guldur and he may have been part of the defence. Alternatively, he may have remained in Rivendell in case of attack.

Evenstar · Dec 30, 2001

I don't know the answer about Glorfindel but...

pgt-
I've wondered the same thing too.

Curufinwe · Dec 30, 2001

Glorfindel

Yes but in the book " A guide to Tolkien" It says he was most probably named after glorfindel of the gondolin. Strange but I had exactly the same question until I read about it.

Greymantle · Dec 30, 2001

Cian... PoME? Is that the last volume? Darn, that's the one I don't have...
Does this supercede the quote on the Grey Havens site from RotS (Which I'm finally reading... huzzah!)

Cian · Dec 30, 2001

Yep Grey, The Peoples of Middle-Earth HoMe vol. XII gives the actual Tolkien texts being referred to in the link, evidently written before its publication.

We can thus see now that Chris Tolkien's conclusion is indeed spot on regarding the Elvish paragon Glorfindel. Cheers

Grond · Dec 31, 2001

Originally posted by Curufin
There are two Glorfindels in Tolkiens books. The one in Imladris and the one in Gondolin

I thought so too before the printing of the Histories of Middle Earth. Glorfindel of Gondolin and Glorfindel in Imladris are one in the same. Glorfindel of Gondolin was killed by a Balrog and his spirit was received by Mandos yet Manwe rehoused his fea (soul) and reincarnated him to return to Middle-earth. This whole process is outlined in The Peoples of Middle Earth in the Histories of Middle-earth, Chapter XIII Last Writings - Of Glorfindel, Cirdan and other matters. It goes into detail of who this occurs and the logic behind it. It is a great read and something I was lucky enough to get for Christmas.

pgt · Dec 31, 2001

Thanks Evenstar, glad I'm not alone. No bigee, Glorfindels loss not ours! ;-) Shame he missed the party though. An elf lord from the days of Gondolin would have impressed the Gondorans!

Son_of_Grond · Dec 31, 2001

If the ring was a matter of men and not elves, then why did the elves (Elrond in particular) bestow a hobbit as ringbearer. Granted, he was reluctant to do so, but if it was a matter of men why not give the responsibility to Aragorn?

Wait, wait, wait...I know what your answer will be...the elves thought men were weak and had little trust in them, especially after the Isildur debacle. But if it wasn't a matter of elves and they weren't going to participate in the ensuing war, then WHY was the ring a concern of theirs at all? What gave them the right to choose the fate of the ring if they weren't gonna get their hands dirty. Sneaky little buggers, those elves...

So, with that...dear father, you can take that opinion of yours and shove it up your Grond-like arse.

<-- note winky

The Two Glorfindels!!

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