🧙Gandalf vs the Balrog. A fair fight?

Gary Gamgee · Jun 28, 2002

I've been thinking about this, both of them were Maia, lesser than Sauron of course, but where they roughly an even match? Balrogs were spirits of fire who where drawn to Morgoth and he in turn took them and cloaked them in shadow and made them his servants. All this was going on in ME whilst over in Valinor the Maia spirit Olorin was walking unseen among the Elves, indeed he was the wisest of all Maia.

On the Bridge of Khazad-dum the great demon of fire was faced with a servant of the secret fire and the keeper of the ring of fire. That first battle on the bridge you could say was an equal win Gandalf broke the bridge and fell the demon into shadow but it dragged him with him. Of course big G won out in the end, but I can't help think they were well matched oppents.

mr underhill · Jun 28, 2002

youve got to think about it like this...

would tolkien let gandalf die????

he let people think he ws dead though...

oh well id put my money on the G man!!!

Galdor · Jun 28, 2002

That's a good question. In UT it says that when Manwe told Gandalf to go Gandalf said he was to weak to do such a task. Is that because he had just returned from a journey and was tired or that he was to weak to face the challenges his mission in ME would have.

mr underhill · Jun 29, 2002

the balrog is a ver powerful evil creature... it my be able to defeat gandalf!!!!

Gary Gamgee · Jun 29, 2002

Yes Galdor Olorin did not want to go to ME, saying he was too weak and he was afraid of Sauron, or was it just Sauron he was afraid of ? Manwe insisted he should go just for those reasons, knowing Olorin's fear and wisdom would drive him to aid in the destruction of Sauron.

But why was Gandalf so afraid of the Balrog?

DGoeij · Jun 29, 2002

Well, I know the Istari (all Maiar) were sent back to ME in the bodies of mortal Men. Thus being destroyable. Remember Sauruman's throat being cut?
Gandalf no doubt had put a lot of time in that magnificent beard and now it would be scorched by some evil Balrog. That would certainly frighten me.

Khamul · Jun 30, 2002

Well they were both Maia, and Im sure that Gandalf was aided in spirit during this battle. The Balrog was not his doom, he was sent to help defeat Sauron, and I dont think he could have perished without the attempt of this.

Gary Gamgee · Jun 30, 2002

Yes Sting I agree, Gandalf had to face the Balrog in order to come back as Gandalf the white. Which in turn helped him to dispose of the threat of Isengard and aid the war of the ring in so many other ways. I do think they were equally matched though and probably the thing that Gandalf an advantage was his ring of power.

BTW I think this was my 500th post

Londier · Jul 2, 2002

It is definetely possible for Gandalf to have died, for Sauruman the most powerful Istari had his neck slit by Wormy.

Darth Saruman · Jul 2, 2002

Originally posted by Londier
It is definetely possible for Gandalf to have died, for Sauruman the most powerful Istari had his neck slit by Wormy.

Agreed, though I believe that Saruman had, by that time, spent most of his Maiar power on his evil works. He had nothing left!

DGoeij · Jul 3, 2002

From the Unifinished Tales, chapter 'The Istari':
(spelling errors on my account)

For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West ... Emissaries they were from the Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-Earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and wearines of earth, able to hunger and thirst and to be slain; thoug because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years.

See, their bodies could be destroyed.
Sarumans body was killed, but his spirit rose from it and was not allowed to come West. Gandalf was clad in a body that could be slain as well. No wonder he was frightned, although he was very well capable of defeating the Balrog.

Gil-Galad · Jul 3, 2002

Well,first Gandalf wasn't weaker than Sauron.Gandalf just wasn't allowed to use his power against Sauron,because people had to defeat Sauron not Gandalf.
About the fight.In "I" ages while Morgoth was in Arda Balrogs were stronger and after The War of Wrath the were destroyed or went in the depth of earth.I suppose that with the years the became weaker because they hadn't got a place from where to become stronger.I mean that tha great evil (Morgoth)was destroyed and there wasn't such evil which could make them strong again.

aragil · Jul 3, 2002

I thought Gandalf did die- his spirit departed from his body, and returned to the West. Vala, Maia, or Elf- If your spirit is seperated from your body, that is considered 'dying'. Looking at it that way, then Gandalf vs the Balrog was as even as possible, as both combatants passed away (much like Glorfindel vs Balrog or Ecthelion vs Gothmog- geez doesn't anybody ever kill a balrog cleanly?). Of course, Gandalf had the advantage that he hadn't burned bridges out West, so he was allowed to return. I doubt the Balrog's spirit found such mercy in Aman.

DGoeij · Jul 3, 2002

I'm still not too sure about that. He did return in a new form as Gandalf the White, like he was reincarnated. But since his first body arrived in ME by ship, I'm wondering how his second body would have arrived then. We know that after he had defeated the balrog, and had had some troubling dreams and such, he was brought to Lothlorien by Gwahir and that he was very light to the Eagle, but what kind of body he actually had.

aragil · Jul 3, 2002

I thought I read somewhere (Letters?) that Gandalf was allowed to take up his old body- there hadn't been too much decay etc. His new and improved powers were apparently not tied to his body (if my recollection on the Letters quote is correct).

Xanaphia · Jul 5, 2002

Come on Gandalf could kick some Balrog butt any day!!! Gandalf won, because though it was a bit tricky for him, he killed the Balrog and he did, in a sense, not die but came back in an even higher and better form than in his past life. Therefore wasn't Gandalf falling to an aparent death a good thing?

Elu Thingol · Jul 5, 2002

Posted by Gil-Galad
Well,first Gandalf wasn't weaker than Sauron.

No I'm afraid Sauron was much stronger than Gandalf

I am Gandalf, Gandalf the White, but Black is mightier still.

Click to expand...

"'Dangerous!' cried Gandalf. 'And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord.'"

Click to expand...

Gandalf may have been the wisest but he still was not stronger than Sauron

Lantarion · Jul 6, 2002

But certainly the next strongest being in M-E at that time. After becoming Gandalf the White his powers were (arguably) enhanced, and overall his passion and determination were strengthened, so I think he was greater than Saruman, if not Sauron. This can be seen by the ruthless telling off that Saruman gets from Gandalf at Orthanc. Haha, that's a good chapter.

Elu Thingol · Jul 6, 2002

Posted by Pontifex
so I think he was greater than Saruman, if not Sauron.

Why did you add the "if not Sauron" part? I have already provided evidence clearly showing that Gandalf the White was weaker than Sauron.

Ponti how come you have mod-to-be under your name?

Rúmil · Jul 6, 2002

i don't know if Sauron was mightier than Gandalf. Much of his power had passed into his servants, and of course, the Ring. Melkor, remember, had so lessened his power that way that he was afraid to stand up to Fingolfin or that maia girl pushing the Sun around. In single combat, it's debatable whether Sauron would have defeated Gandalf in full power. I personally think Gandalf would have won, or possibly end it in a double-KO.

🧙Gandalf vs the Balrog. A fair fight?

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