Who controls the Watcher in the Water?

Ithrynluin · Oct 22, 2002

I got this idea from another forum.
Who controls the mysterious Watcher in the water?
Discuss.

Elu Thingol · Oct 22, 2002

This is the quote most of us will be basing our thoughts on so here it is

"He did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized Frodo first among all the Company."

The fact that the beast goes for Frodo excludes the Watcher itself and most likely the Balrog. I can't really say if it's Saruman or Sauron.

Ithrynluin · Oct 22, 2002

On the contrary,I think the Watcher itself is the most likely option.
(Second place for Sauron,and the last place shared by the Balrog and Saruman).
I think so mainly because of Gandalf saying :

Far, far below the deepest delving of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things.Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he.

Of course,just because they are older,does not necessarily mean they are not under Sauron's control,but it's a hunch.Everything that was evil was not necessarily in league with Sauron, it may have had an agenda of its own.
Saruman controlling it is even less likely IMO,because whatever evil was left in ME would bow before Sauron,the Dark Lord,and not to Saruman, a new comer(compared to Sauron).

Elu Thingol · Oct 22, 2002

I see your point about Saruman but disagree with you about it being the Watcher itself. And I just realized something! It actually could be the watcher itself maybe it was just hungre, in that case it would go for the weakest member of the group, one of the hobbits. However, Gandalf's hunches are usually not just hunches.

Ithrynluin · Oct 22, 2002

You are contradicting yourself a bit. Gandalf's observation was made greater in his mind than it really was,because he was afraid that the quest would fail.He said nothing because he didn't desire to alarm anyone needlessly.That's my opinion anyway.

Theoden · Oct 22, 2002

I agree with ithrynluin. I think that staying consistant with Tolkiens ideas and characters, an ancient creature like the Watcher would have a will of it's own. I do not think, however, that it grabbed Frodo by chance. It seems that though many of the evil things of the earth did not know about the rings of power, they were drawn to it due to it's evil. I would have to say the Watcher had a mind of his own and if not it, than the ring was what was calling the shots...

Elu Thingol · Oct 22, 2002

Very good insight Theoden, I like your idea. Also ithrynluin I am in no way contradicting myself because I had not yet made up my mind. I was still waying all the issues. Yes, the ring may have drawn the monster but do you have evidence?

Grond · Oct 22, 2002

Originally posted by Elu Thingol
Very good insight Theoden, I like your idea. Also ithrynluin I am in no way contradicting myself because I had not yet made up my mind. I was still waying all the issues. Yes, the ring may have drawn the monster but do you have evidence?

There is none, other than the fact that the Ring is portrayed in the book as the next - most Evil thing on Middle-earth besides Sauron. It is also given near sentience and is constantly referred to as having a "Will". I think that is all merely related to Sauron's evil and that the Ring is akin to a magnet which constantly seeks (as best it can) to be returned to it's master.

These Ring-portrayals in the book, would make the Watcher acting on his own... but grabbing for Frodo probably the more feasible of the arguments. But, JRRT never really addressed this issue in any of the books I've read.

Elu Thingol · Oct 22, 2002

Ahhh.. here is an argument I didn't think of. If infact it is the ring that draws the watcher, then one could argue that the Ring controlled the mysterious watcher. And sense you could argue that the ring is part of Sauron, then you could say Sauron did indeed control the watcher.

Theoden · Oct 23, 2002

Grond is right. There are a lot of things that are mentioned in the books but never spelled out in detail. I would have to say that this seems, in part, to be one of those cases. I still do not think that it was Sauron who controlled the Watcher through the ring, however indirect or direct his connections were with it. The ring had been parted from the dark lord for over 2500 years... I think it was the evil in the ring itself that drew the Watcher to snatch Frodo from among the other fellowship members.

-me

Pale King · Oct 23, 2002

How about the simple explanation that Tolkien had the Watcher grab Frodo simply for dramatic effect? Its quite possible that Tolkien was simply building the pressure on Frodo and increasing the fear for him and the Ring in the mind of the reader. Its possible that not every connotation was explored fully by Tolkien and that some details are there purely to build the atmosphere within the text and plot.

I know that it is not really Tolkiens style to leave such matters unatended to, however from what I know of the texts he never actually gives us any other clues on this matter therefore we are surely in the realms of pure speculation?

I am more than happy to be proved wrong on this one by the way

.

Theoden · Oct 23, 2002

Well, perhaps it was for dramas sake, but I would rather believe that it was a more fantastical reason then just a whim of the authors imagination. But like you said, we may never know for sure.

-me

Húrin Thalion · Oct 23, 2002

There is one question that is very similar to this one, did Sauron control the snow masses at Caradhras? Personally I think that he did not but I have not been able to confirm it anywhere.

Elen

Ithrynluin · Oct 23, 2002

Originally posted by Elen Carnë
There is one question that is very similar to this one, did Sauron control the snow masses at Caradhras? Personally I think that he did not but I have not been able to confirm it anywhere.

Elen

I agree with that,I think it was just the "evil will" of the mountain itself.

Galadhwen · Oct 23, 2002

The mountains were reared by Morgorth and hated elves and dwarves perhaps it was something to do with his ancient malice, which could also be the same for Kracken the Watcher, could he be some ancient thing that Morgorth knew of (or not) deep in the depths of the mountains before Moria? I agree that the Ring probobly drew Kracken to Frodo as it is all evil and invites evil which kinda invokes the question would the Watcher have stirred by the will of the Ring even if the surface of the lake had not been disturbed?
I said Sauron controlled it but now I'm not so sure!

gate7ole · Oct 23, 2002

One thing that hasn't been discussed about the Watcher is that it acts not like a beast, but as a sentient creature. Its origins cannot be thus located to other than Morgoth himself. His uncontrollable actions during the FA, especially east of the Ered Lindon, where no Eldar dwelt to stop him, must have produced such aboninable creatures.
Now, the question arises, whether Sauron had control over all the prior servants of Morgoth. I believe so. When he returned to ME and regained his strength, I'm sure that his first moves where to re-establish the bonds with all the evil creatures. And he wouldn't have any problem locating them. So, he must have known the existence of the Watcher and have put it under his service.

Grond · Oct 23, 2002

Originally posted by gate7ole
One thing that hasn't been discussed about the Watcher is that it acts not like a beast, but as a sentient creature. Its origins cannot be thus located to other than Morgoth himself. His uncontrollable actions during the FA, especially east of the Ered Lindon, where no Eldar dwelt to stop him, must have produced such aboninable creatures.
Now, the question arises, whether Sauron had control over all the prior servants of Morgoth. I believe so. When he returned to ME and regained his strength, I'm sure that his first moves where to re-establish the bonds with all the evil creatures. And he wouldn't have any problem locating them. So, he must have known the existence of the Watcher and have put it under his service.

Your theory holds no water since both Shelob and the Balrog would fall into this category. It is clear from the texts that the Balrog was not subservient to Sauron nor was Shelob. I feel the Watcher would fall into an other category just as would Gothmog (Maia) and Shelob (Daughter of Maia).

krash8765 · Oct 23, 2002

Out of the Tolkein Bestiary for Kraken

"According to the most ancient tales, Melkor, that most evil of Powers, in his kingdom of Utumno in Middle-earth bred many terrible creatures for which there are no names in the Time of Darkness before Vards rekindled the Stars. In the following Ages these creatures were a bane on land and in dark waters to those who lived peacefully in the world. Some of these beings of Melkor's survived below the thunders of the deep far beneath the abysmal seas in ancient, dreamless, uninvaded sleep even into the Third Age of the sun. The "Red Book of Westmarch" tells that when a fiery Balrog was loosed in Moria, another being came out from the dark waters that lay below the great mountains. This was a great Kraken, many tentacled and huge with a slimy sheen. It was luminous and green and an inky stench came from its foul bulk. Like a legion of serpents it lay in the black water beneath the mountain. Eventually it came to the clear water of the River Sirannon, which flowed from the West Gate of Moria. There it built a great wall in the river bed and made for itself a black pool, hideous and still. This being was guardian of the West Gate and none could pass without challenge. For this reason, in the "Book of mazarbul" The Kraken was named Watcher in the water.

Grond · Oct 23, 2002

Originally posted by krash8765
Out of the Tolkein Bestiary for Kraken

Not a valid source document as the Bestiary was not written by Tolkien. I find no such reference in any of Tolkien's primary corpus. Please provide me with a quote from Hob, LotR, Sil, UT, or HoMe which would substantiate that description.

Lantarion · Oct 24, 2002

Exactly. There are many works that either seem to be true or that just sound ridiculous, and are both incorrect in many ways. What the 'Bestiary' says on this matter is speculation, as Tolkien does not introduce this knowledge anywhere (perhaps in the 'Letters'; if so, a quote would be wonderful).

Anyway, I voted that the Watcher had a mind and will of its own: as has stated, there were older and fouler things in the world than Sauron that are not under his dominion.. And I personally think that it grabbing Frodo first was just a coincidence: it states in the LotR that he was standing closest to the lake, so it would be quite rational for the beat to go for him first: it was only stressed that it was Frodo because so much depends on him throughout the whole book.

Another theory, though, is that the Ring was 'commanding' it. As we have seen, the Ring does seem to have a sort of 'will' of its own. At least it can be said that it has a strange knack for attracting evil/greedy/weak-minded/proud things or people to it (Cf. Nazgûl, Boromir). So perhaps the rock thrown by Boromir (it was Boromir, wasn't it?) was of no importance, but the Ring perhaps found a chance, so to speak, to attract the creature towards the Company so that it could reallocate itself (ie. get lost) again. Perhaps an extra option could be added to the poll?

Who controls the Watcher in the Water?

Who controls the Watcher in the water?

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