When did Gorthaur become 👁️Sauron?

Húrin Thalion · Jan 11, 2003

As we know, Gorthaur was the lieutenant of Morgoth in the first age, later he became the chief evil in Middle Earth during the second and third age, Sauron. I know wonder, when did this transformation come? When he was beaten by Lúthien and Huan at Minas Tirith? When he used so much of his power to build a realm, abandon it and corrupt Númenor? Or even when he made the One Ring or power (or lost it?)? I would personally say that it must have been by the fall of Númenor because he had poured so much of himself in corrupting the inhabitants of that land.
Any thoughts?

Húrin Thalion

Anamatar IV · Jan 11, 2003

Gorthaur? Was this name in HoMe? I don't remember it if it was from the Sil.

Húrin Thalion · Jan 11, 2003

Cannot remember, too tired to look it up. It is in the Silmarillion tohugh.

Húrin Thalion

FoolOfATook · Jan 11, 2003

Among those of his (Melkor's) servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar call Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his begining he was of the Maiar of Aule, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people.

From the Valaquenta- "Of the Enemies"

Of old there was Sauron the Maia, whom the Sindar in Beleriand named Gorthaur.

From "Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age"

In the index to The Sil, it sates that Gorthaur is "The name of Sauron in Sindarin." I don't think that there is a moment for Sauron similar to when Feanor named Melkor Morgoth.

Lhunithiliel · Jan 12, 2003

I think that there is no "exact date"

as an answer to your question. But the events, listed by you, (Hurin), show that even far in the FA he had become Morgoth's servant already. I think that he might have turned to Melkor as his Master at those dark ages when ME was totally unattended by the other Valar and Melkor had almost a full control over the creatures living there. At those times it was that he built his strongest and most fearful fortresses and strongholds and that was the time that he acted as some "freaky" "genetic engineer" breeding new creatures and letting them spread throughout in ME ... That must have been quite impressive for a spirit like Sauron.
Imagine, he was Aule's spirit, but although a very important Vala, Aule was NOT the greatest. While Melkor....!!!!! It was well known who he was! The Valar at that point did not care much about ME, nor about Melkor (or perhaps feared him

), so Melkor showed himself as mighty as he was made by Eru, equal to Manwe's powers... THIS could have been a very good reason for spirits like Sauron to "shift" the sides. There is an extract from the Silmarillion about all this, but right now I don't have it (sorry!)

Just my thoughts, based on the whole story....

FoolOfATook · Jan 12, 2003

Imagine, he was Aule's spirit, but although a very important Vala, Aule was NOT the greatest.

I've always found it interesting that Aule was Sauron's Vala, as well as the Vala who offered up Saruman for the Istari. I'd be curious if anyone believes that to be a coincidence, because I'm fairly sure that it must be significant, but I haven't decided exactly what it means. Thoughts?

Lhunithiliel · Jan 12, 2003

And....also the Vala, that deffinitely was not interested in the policy of the other Valar concerning the fate of Arda, the Quendi, the Atani etc.

Now, I was thinking about some very "stupid" analogy.... about the "forbidden fruit of knowledge". I, personally, do not know the Bible in details (I have never had it as a part of my education, taking into consideration the "left" side of the "iron curtain", where I've lived

) . However, weren't Adam and Eve cast away from Eden because they tried the fruit of knowledge? Wasn't this called a "sin"?
And far back into Greek mythology - wasn't Prometeus severly punished by the Gods for giving the "fire (symbol of knowledge and skills) to people....

In Tolkien's writing - knowledge and skills (Aule!) - used for terrible achievements.... at least at first...

I might be of course very wrong, but.... why treat knowledge and skills as something that brings rather destruction... ? Look what have happened to Sauron, to Feanor...

FoolOfATook · Jan 12, 2003

Yeah, Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but it was a sin because God had told Adam and Eve not to eat fruit from that tree. Prometheus was a Titan, I believe, in Greek mythology, and he wound up chained to the side of a mountain where the same bird ate his liver for all eternity as punishment for giving fire to humans- something like that anyway-I never particularily cared for Classical mythology.

I don't think that Tolkien considered knowledge and skills to be bad in and of themselves, but I would concede that he was quite pessimistic about the way they were generally used, at least as he saw the world.

Húrin Thalion · Jan 12, 2003

I think the reason to that Aulë's maiar fell was due to their love to the works of hand and material possesions. Of Aulë it is said that "He gave freely to both valar adn eldar of his works." Saruman took the way through obsession with his own skill to desire of the Ring and thus evil. Sauron however was a different story, I agree with you there Lhun. He fell not because he was a maiar of Aulë but that might have helped his enamourment with the power of Power. We canot set an exact date but I think that one event was the turning point, the destruction of Númenor because then he had invested so much power in that and also lost much of his power in it's fall. After thta he could not appear fair in the eyes of emn and it is doubtful if he then can be called such a powerful maia. My point is that Curumo (Saruman) did not fear him, at least not untill he clad himself in bodily form, though Ólorin did, and that was why he was sent, not as the third messenger but as the first of them. The third age was the time of Sauron, not Gorthaur.

Húrin Thalion

Lhunithiliel · Jan 12, 2003

Sauron fell to Morgoth's spell long before Numenor. It was in the FA when at Dagor Bragollach he appeared as the new terror of ME.
But look what I have found while looking for information on my lecture-topic.
It comes from Letter 131.

Anyway all this stuff mainly concerned with Fall, Mortality, and the Machine. With Fall inevitably, and that motive occurs in several modes.

It has various opportunities of 'Fall'. It may become possessive, clinging to the things made as 'its own', the sub-creator wishes to be the Lord and God of his private creation. He will rebel against the laws of the Creator – especially against mortality...

Both of these (alone or together) will lead to the desire for Power, for making the will more quickly effective,...

...the Elves are there (in my tales) to demonstrate the difference. Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation.

The Enemy in successive forms is always 'naturally' concerned with sheer Domination, and so the Lord of magic and machines; but the problem : that this frightful evil can and does arise from an apparently good root, the desire to benefit the world and others — speedily and according to the benefactor's own plans — is a recurrent motive.

Impressive! And it gives truth!

gate7ole · Jan 12, 2003

The difference in Sauron’s names isn’t similar with Melkor-Morgoth. The later was a change in naming in the same language, indicating an emotion of hatred from Fëanor’s part. Sauron/Gorthaur differs only in the language (Quenya vs. Sindarin).
Now, about the “meat” of the discussion, as far as I can understand, no transformation happened to Sauron/Gorthaur or however he is called. Well, a transformation actually took place, but it was long ago, when Sauron was “attracted” by Melkor’s “black” magic than Aulë’s “white”.
Sauron did not change from the first to the third age significantly. He still held Melkor as his Lord at Númenor. He was still working the plan to subdue the peoples of ME under the Evil. At the Third Age, he didn’t become Morgoth. He had no nihilistic purposes, just dominational. The basic change on him was that he was now taking the decisions and planning his moves and had withdrawn to a more observing and issuing position.

Húrin Thalion · Jan 19, 2003

Hmmm... well argumented. I would say that there was a transformation, one that did not cause the name change but I just thought of that as a fast title, it has more to do with that quenya fell out of use and Sindarin replaced it. I think that what shows that he had changed is that he surtrendered to the lords of the west and thus forsook evil. This may not have been permanently or maybe just an attempt to save his own life but it shows that he was still redeemable. In the third age he was much weaker and his wisdom was diminished so that he could not accept resistance or accept being forgiven by someone, his pride was too great. He then could not submit to the judgement of Valar, even from fear because he had now become the supreme evil being and wished to dsominate all middle earth. He was not ready to recieve any mercy. The difference between him and Saruman is htat whilst he scorned Frodo's mercy at the stairs of bag end he also accepted it and left. Sauron could never have done such a thing, he was too proud.
'
The change was in the diminishing of his power and wisdom so that he could not accept another ones supremacy.

Húrin Thalion

gate7ole · Jan 19, 2003

I agree with your thoughts. This transformation is very reasonable. Power corrupts and leads to pride. As long as Sauron was under Morgoth’ s command, he really didn’t have to make the difficult decisions. His role was to fulfil his master’s demands in the most suitable way. It is through his emergence as a master that he became proud. But I don’t think that this transformation was actually a change in Sauron’s behaviour. I believe that these characteristics existed hidden from the beginning and appeared when the circumstances changed in favour of them.
One last thing:
Sauron ~ Quenya
Gorthaur ~ Sindarin
So, the change in naming was not from Quenya to Sindarin, but vice versa.

gilgalad · Feb 2, 2003

A scolaire dhil,

Perhaps a literal translation of the names gorthaur and sauron would help give an insight into the reason why use of one became favoured over the other. Maybe it's only a subtle difference but maybe the difference made the name sauron more fitting for that Maia at the time he became known by that name.
Yours Without Wax
Do Chara
gilgalad

Ithrynluin · Jun 5, 2004

My opinion is similar to gate7ole's. I don't think there was any 'becoming' from Gorthaur to Sauron or vice versa. Gorthaur was simply another name for a particular Maia (and one I happen to like

). Whereas Sauron means 'the abhorred', Gorthaur

gor 'horror, dread' in Gorthaur, Gorthol; goroth of the same meaning, with reduplicated gor, in Gorgoroth, Ered Gorgoroth.

thaur 'abominable, abhorrent' in Sauron (from Thauron), Gorthaur.

obviously means something like 'abominable dread'.

gilgalad said:
Perhaps a literal translation of the names gorthaur and sauron would help give an insight into the reason why use of one became favoured over the other. Maybe it's only a subtle difference but maybe the difference made the name sauron more fitting for that Maia at the time he became known by that name.

Again, I don't think it was a matter of one name being more fitting. Besides, we can't know whether Gorthaur fell out of use, since Sauron was rarely openly named.

Húrin Thalion said:
The difference between him and Saruman is htat whilst he scorned Frodo's mercy at the stairs of bag end he also accepted it and left. Sauron could never have done such a thing, he was too proud.

I disagree - I see no difference in this aspect between Saruman and Sauron. Saruman did not accept his banishment from Hobbiton, he was forced to accept it as he had no alternative. Saruman had been granted several chances to redeem himself and repent, e.g. when Gandalf parleyed with him at the steps of Orthanc, or when he was overtaken by the Ring Bearers, or even Treebeard letting him walk free might be construed as an offer to repent; he threw all of these out the window, however.

When did Gorthaur become 👁️Sauron?

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