An Optional Screenplay / Council of 🧝Elrond

[Eomer Dinmention]

Congratulations Thorin that was very good you took a long time and in the end it was worth it

 

[Thorin]

Thanks folks! Keep it coming!

I appreciate all the positive comments! I must admit that I thought I'd be lambasted on this one. I tried to make something that the even the die-hard movie fans and the die-hard purists (like myself) could accept and appreciate. I hope that I have done that at least, though I know there are many revisions that I could do right now on it.

I would like more opinions, positive or negative, on this screenplay from more of the members. I am planning on doing another one on the whole Prancing Pony scene, in the bar and in the room. Though these scenes do need to be cut down and altered from what Tolkien wrote, I felt that they could have been done better in the movie.

If anyone agrees and thinks this would be a good idea and would wish me to start working, or would like to collaborate on it, let me know!

 

[stevehope]

Very nice

I like it a lot. My suggestion would be to cut all of the cut scenes (Gondor battling Mordor) and have Elrond summarize what Gloin said and perhaps reduce the number of times Boromir interjects (i.e. consolidate his various concerns into a single exchange between Boromir and Elrond and Aragorn towards the end of the Council). The last may not be possible , but I'd be nervous about fitting everything in that you include within the time allotted.

 

[Thorin]

I thought about combining speeches, but I didn't consolidate all the things that Boromir and Elrond said because each comment has a specific response that is necessary for the other to exist. By combining all of Boromir's comments to be answered by all of Elrond's comments would not make the scene any shorter, and to combine them and then cut them down would seem rushed and too compacted.

I wasn't given a time factor to do this, but I tried to keep it reasonable. I don't think that it would take a half hour like Greenwood thinks. I think that it would move fairly quick (20 minutes at most) but I think Foe said he might be acting this out to see. That would be interesting.

Thanks stevehope for your comments!

 

[PRH]

If you really wanted to put Elrond's choice for the Fellowship members into another scene, you could do like Bashki did and have Elrond do a voice over as they are leaving Rivendell explaining his choices. This would have to be carefully done so as not to destroy the scene of huge vista shots with music only.

Nevertheless, it's a great rewrite for sure - nice job!

 

[Foe-Hammer]

I figure roughly about 11 minutes for Thorins first draft. Obviously too long, IMO, for a scene that is admittedly less than riveting.

The first change I would suggest is a segue into the invitation to Elronds council. Perhapes, gandalf passing by, poking his head in the door as Frodo and Bilbo finish with the freak-out scene.

2nd change. Did anyone else notice how even as the second showing of Sauron's finger getting cut off, it seemed boring? Like "OK, what did I miss the first time?". While re-writing this we need to not repeat ourselves, or state the obvious. There are other things, but that'll wait.
For that reason I feel the introductions should wait until the point that Elrond announces who the 9 will be. Except for Frodo, of course. That will pare the time down while keeping it true to the intent. I also like the idea of the voice over as the fellowship leaves Rivendale. That is very workable.

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Foe-Hammer
I figure roughly about 11 minutes for Thorins first draft. Obviously too long, IMO, for a scene that is admittedly less than riveting.

The first change I would suggest is a segue into the invitation to Elronds council. Perhapes, gandalf passing by, poking his head in the door as Frodo and Bilbo finish with the freak-out scene.

That's it?? Eleven minutes?? Great! I thought is was going to be longer. I think taking 11 minutes to properly show a pivotal moment in explaining to the audience more of what needs to happen concerning the ring is time well used, no matter how riveting. That is why I put a few flashbacks to keep interest to get through an important part. And when you look at many movies, there are far longer explanation scenes that subject the audience to meaningless dialogue rather than explain a purpose. That does not mean that a few riveting things couldn't be added or the scene itself be spruced up. I think the dialogue is important, though. Don't under estimate the power of the well thought out and spoken word to keep people's attention! After all, I hang on your words with eager anticipation like waiting for honey to come out of the comb!

The only riveting things that occurred in the movie's scene were Gimli smacking the ring with his axe and the council erupting into the Jerry Springer show. I would call that less then riveting compared to most scenes, considering that the surrounding happenings of the Council left me more confused and short changed then anything.

I like the idea of melding the two scenes with Gandalf and Bilbo's conversation. My question is this: Didn't the movie show the Bilbo/Frodo scene AFTER the council of Elrond?

 

[Foe-Hammer]

Yes, you're right and that means we can't use the voice over the way I imagined it because frodo recieves the mithril shirt before they leave rivendale and after the 9 are selected.

11 minutes is 6% of the total film time and we haven't dealt with Narsil yet, and the rest of the rivendale scenes. I imagine the entire Rivendale scene from the movie being no more than 8 minutes or so and that includes the council scene. We wont know for sure until the DVD is out. Bummer. Cause I don't want to start talking about deleting other scenes because it will get pretty balled up real fast. But on the other hand, we don't want to spend a ton of time on this scene and then scrap a lot of it over time constraints.

Well, that not worry about time. Figure out the segue to brgin the scene, and trim the repeticious dialogue and well see how it works.

 

[PRH]

Foe

Yes, you're right and that means we can't use the voice over the way I imagined it because frodo recieves the mithril shirt before they leave rivendale and after the 9 are selected.

Elrond might state that companions will be selected in the Council. Sam can of course burst into the Council demanding to go with Frodo and Elrond would say "no indeed...ect" and continue with "other companions I will appoint to join you and these I will consider" or something to that effect. Then you'd have the scene with Bilbo giving Sting and the shirt, then they'd leave Rivendell and we'll have the voiceover naming the appointed companions.

Still, this treatment might do more harm to the scene of vistas then it would do good to the narrative. I don't know.


Also, why should the scene start with Gandalf leading Frodo and Bilbo into the Council? As the movie currently has it, we cut from Arwen and Aragorn on the bridge to the long shot of the Council - which is very nice. I think the scene could still start with Elrond introducing Frodo around without Frodo explicitly entering the Council last being shown.

 

[Wide Boy]

Top effort, Thorin.

I'm a PJ FOTR version fan, overall I gave the movie about 85%. However, the Council of Elrond was in the other 15%. Your version would have improved that dramatically. The "Seek for the Sword that was broken" rhyme is particularly important.

The only thing I'd add is getting in the bit where Gandalf recites the rhyme of the Ring in the Black Speech. I always find that to be a dramatic and pivotal moment when I read the book and it would counter what some people are saying is the risk of the whole scene being a bit rivet-less. I don't agree but I concede that there are some movie goers whose attention span might be tested by it.

 

[Foe-Hammer]

prh,

As it isn't my screenplay we'll leave it to thorin to make the changes. I hope it hasn't become overwhelming for him yet. I think it is very close and I'm pretty sure he's making changes in his free time.

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Wide Boy
Top effort, Thorin. The only thing I'd add is getting in the bit where Gandalf recites the rhyme of the Ring in the Black Speech. I always find that to be a dramatic and pivotal moment when I read the book and it would counter what some people are saying is the risk of the whole scene being a bit rivet-less. I don't agree but I concede that there are some movie goers whose attention span might be tested by it.

Thanks Wide,

You know what? When I set out to do this screenplay, I meant to add that Black Speech episode to keep it a bit menacing....I totally forgot!! What was I thinking?

Foe,

Maybe I'm a little dense at getting the message, but I wasn't even planning on redoing or changing the screenplay ....If there is an interest in me creating a finished product with all the input I've received, I will go back and do it....And I would like to add in the Black Speech/Gandalf scene.

Any objections?

PS: I have finished the revised screenplay for the bar scene at the Prancing Pony and have submitted it to a few people for review. There are a few problems with the whole thing, however and I'm not sure how to solve them....yet.

 

[Wide Boy]

We want the script! We want the script! We want the script!

 

[Foe-Hammer]

Thorin,

No, you don't have to. It just wouldn't work the way it is and by the time it was ready for film, you would not have what you started with.
Among the other things I've already mentioned, Gloin takes over the scene and Frodo's acceptance of the ring is like "OH, yeah, that's why we were here". It just comes off differently on film. And the viewer does not have a book in front of him to develope Frodos character here.

So as it is, I'd have to disagree that it is a better than what we have in the FOTR and this is probably why PJ did it the way he did. Nothing personal.

 

[Grond]

Thorin.... forget it! No matter how good your product is, they will find fault. It won't work on film. It won't translate to the audience. It won't reflect visually what's on the written medium.

Foe, your last post has four negatives in the first paragraph alone. I equalled your four negatives in my paragraph above. Our basic differences are easily explained. Your standards relate to how the movie reflects the screenplay's adaptation. Our purist standards relate to how well the book is reflected in the movie.

 

[Foe-Hammer]

Grond,

I thought thorin did a great job. You just don't expect to throw a screenplay that took a couple hours out there and have it be perfect, do you? And you just can't say "There, thats better than what we have already" without proving it somehow. I was serious about this challenge and I believe that it is possible to write a better scene than what we have already. But we don't have that yet and that isn't a slam at Thorin. He is not a writer and he did a good job. He had the balls to put his vision out there for everyone to see and to be judged by FAD and weenie alike.

Our differences are really explained this way....

My standards relate how well the book was adapted to a screenplay and how that screenplay was filmed.

You have skipped the middle step. And that is not a view that is realistic when adapting books to movies.

I suggest YOU come up with your version of this scene and we'll see if you can improve on what PJ did.

 

[Wide Boy]

I'm a bit lost with where this debate is going. Even those of us who see much merit in PJ's work mostly agree that the Council of Elrond is one thing he doesn't get full marks for. Thorin's version might have a few bits to tidy up but it is still streets ahead. And what I've read says to me that most people are of that view.

I'd personally love to see a revised, polished product but not all of us are in a position to do naught else but write detailed screenplays for our fellow members' entertainment. If Thorin is able to find the time to do a final, then that would be fantastic but I'm grateful for the outline we have already seen.

I would have thought we have plenty to argue about without having to get into spats about something we all like......

 

[Wide Boy]

Hmmm...... Harad you have planted the seed of doubt. Are we just so critical of the Council of Elrond because we've all memorsied it and see a lot of what we think is necessary material left out? I know a couple of Tolkien virgins who saw the movie. I'll check with them to see if they give the same response as your five.

You almost had me convinced until you referred to Fritz-the-Cat Bakshi.

 

[Thorin]

Thanks for the feedback and support! I haven't decided if I am going to go back and edit the COE yet. I am planning on posting a new screenplay on the Prancing Pony in two parts: the scene at the bar where Frodo accidentally puts on the ring; and the scene in the room where Aragorn reveals himself to the hobbits. I am finished the first scene and am waiting for some feedback. I want to make it as a replacement for PJ's scene. That means that I would have to make it make sense with what happens before and after. Herein lies the problem...

I want to include Gandalf's letter. I know that in the movie, Gandalf goes straight to Orthanc and then ends up in Rivendell at the same time as Strider and the hobbits. In the book, he gives Butterbur the message before he goes to Orthanc, so it could still work. Considering Gandalf's letter drop is not shown, but discovered later in the book, I feel that it would be feasible to put it in my screenplay. I think that it is important to further develop Aragorn's character which is one of the reason's why I am doing it.

Any comments?

 

[PRH]

Thorin,

The letter will be hard to work in around the existing scenes. I'm not sure how you'll do it. I had a very long message typed out here with a suggested outline but I just couldn't make it work plot-wise. I kept making changes to have it make sense and the changes kept taking things in the direction of the book (what does that tell you?). No, I don't think you can really make it work with the letter without bringing it almost completely back to the book's scenario.

Also, what would be the point of the letter? In the book the point is for Frodo to set out immedietly from the Shire (and also that Strider is a friend, but this is the lesser purpose of the writing). In the movie, Frodo is already on his way when Gandalf leaves.

I'm anxious to see what you come up with anyway!