Are 🧝Legolas from 'The Fall of Gondolin' and 'the' Legolas the same?

[Elthir]

No problem! One thing I love to note is the little detail in the revised (1950s) Fall of Gondolin:
the description of Ecthelion's spiked helm when Tuor meets him . . . which I'd say suggests that
Ecthelion was "still" going to spike his Balrog (as he does in the early version, even if certain details
of the encounter might have been changed) . . .

. . . if only JRRT had finished the thing!

But as for the famous battle with Glorfindel, in a late note Tolkien wrote: "The duel of Glorfindel and the Demon may need revision."

And as for Legolas of Mirkwood and the Moria Balrog, Tolkien once noted: "It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is -- and doubtless Gandalf." JRRT, letter 144

Not that Legolas of Mirkwood had necessarily ever seen one before . . . in real life I mean

 

[Eljorahir]

No problem! One thing I love to note is the little detail in the revised (1950s) Fall of Gondolin:
the description of Ecthelion's spiked helm when Tuor meets him . . . which I'd say suggests that
Ecthelion was "still" going to spike his Balrog (as he does in the early version, even if certain details
of the encounter might have been changed) . . .

. . . if only JRRT had finished the thing!

But as for the famous battle with Glorfindel, in a late note Tolkien wrote: "The duel of Glorfindel and the Demon may need revision."

And as for Legolas of Mirkwood and the Moria Balrog, Tolkien once noted: "It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is -- and doubtless Gandalf." JRRT, letter 144

Not that Legolas of Mirkwood had necessarily ever seen one before . . . in real life I mean

I'm still a novice when it comes to "The Fall of Gondolin". I bought it last year, started reading, and (embarrassed to say) soon decided to skip over most of Christopher's explanations and only read the three versions of the story. And, wow, was I shocked to find the amazing stories and descriptions that had been around for so long and I never knew about. Previously, all I had was the 10-page chapter in The Silmarillion. So, for me, which parts of "the story" go with which versions are still a bit of a jumble for me.

In (I think the earliest version) I found my new favorite Tolkien phrase: "...fiery battle in cool waters..."

Oh, before I forget...it's just within the slightest tiny bit of a smidgen of a possibility that Legolas of Mirkwood might have seen quite a few balrogs...in real life I mean. 😉

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

While we are on this topic, the mention of both a Boromir, and a Denethor are in The Silmarillion.

It is completely confirmed that these are NOT the same as in LOTR, correct?

 

[Eljorahir]

While we are on this topic, the mention of both a Boromir, and a Denethor are in The Silmarillion.

It is completely confirmed that these are NOT the same as in LOTR, correct?

Yep. I see them in the index.
Boromir, grandfather of Barahir. I think that makes this Boromir a direct ancestor of Aragorn's (way way back).
Denethor (an elf), son of Lenwe.

The name Minas Tirith (Finrod's watchtower on Tol Sirion) was also reused.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Yep. I see them in the index.
Boromir, grandfather of Barahir. I think that makes this Boromir a direct ancestor of Aragorn's (way way back).
Denethor (an elf), son of Lenwe.

The name Minas Tirith (Finrod's watchtower on Tol Sirion) was also reused.

Thanks for the extra clarity-- this was what I thought, yet much appreciated indeed.

 

[Elthir]

Oh, before I forget...it's just within the slightest tiny bit of a smidgen of a possibility that Legolas of Mirkwood might have seen quite a few balrogs...in real life I mean. 😉

(. . .) Previously, all I had was the 10-page chapter in The Silmarillion. So, for me, which parts of "the story" go with which versions are still a bit of a jumble for me.

That's understandable. Actually (if it helps at all) in this thread I've mostly been referring to the following two versions of The Fall of Gondolin:

The one written in Tolkien's early archaistic style, first published in The Book of Lost Tales II (as part of The History of Middle-Earth series), published again in the more recent The Fall of Gondolin book, with illustrations by Alan Lee. This version begins: "Then said Littleheart son of Bronweg: (. . .)"

And the (1951) long prose version, first published in Unfinished Tales, and also published again in the same Fall of Gondolin book, illustrated by Lee. Under the heading The Last Version, this one begins: "Rían, wife of Huor, dwelt with the people of the house of Hador; . . ."

The long prose versions of the Great Tales were intended to complement the shorter chapters in Quenta Silmarillion, as QS itself covers a lot of history.

 

[Áramandë Amaniel]

So am I.

 

[Ent]

So am I.

Let me help.
With regard to one or two Legolas' - "we're still not sure".
With regard to whether Legolas 2, if indeed there are 2 and whether he's seen some balrogs... "we're still not sure."
If there's just Legolas The One, then surely he saw or knew intimately of balrogs.

Conclusion: I'm leaving it with the Chief Cellrog in the "Great Halls...." until the universe depends on its resolution.

 

[Eljorahir]

That's understandable. Actually (if it helps at all) in this thread I've mostly been referring to the following two versions of The Fall of Gondolin:

The one written in Tolkien's early archaistic style, first published in The Book of Lost Tales II (as part of The History of Middle-Earth series), published again in the more recent The Fall of Gondolin book, with illustrations by Alan Lee. This version begins: "Then said Littleheart son of Bronweg: (. . .)"

And the (1951) long prose version, first published in Unfinished Tales, and also published again in the same Fall of Gondolin book, illustrated by Lee. Under the heading The Last Version, this one begins: "Rían, wife of Huor, dwelt with the people of the house of Hador; . . ."

The long prose versions of the Great Tales were intended to complement the shorter chapters in Quenta Silmarillion, as QS itself covers a lot of history.

Thanks. That helps. The book I have is the Alan Lee illustrated book, but I've not read Lost Tales. It's good to know there's not another different version of the story floating around.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Let me help.
With regard to one or two Legolas' - "we're still not sure".
With regard to whether Legolas 2, if indeed there are 2 and whether he's seen some balrogs... "we're still not sure."
If there's just Legolas The One, then surely he saw or knew intimately of balrogs.

Conclusion: I'm leaving it with the Chief Cellrog in the "Great Halls...." until the universe depends on its resolution.

Thanks for the clarity-- and not too hastily as always!

 

[Elthir]

How about another (possible) scenario: one Legolas in Middle-earth history, who sees only the Moria Balrog. And this of course denies that there ever was an Elf named Legolas in Gondolin!

Gasp!

Internally (but see next paragraph): I could imagine that this Elf was called Laigolas Legolast,
and that the confused form Legolas only appears in later text. In other words, unless I've missed something, I think it's still open as to whether or not the confused form was actually spoken in Gondolin (did the Elves actually call anyone Legolas), or if the confused form only arose in written stories of the Fall of Gondolin.

But this is, in any case, itself a "blind blending" of the old and new, for this is a Gnomish language scenario, and in the true history of Middle-earth (as Tolkien would envision it decades later), there is no Gnomish Language.

Note the name Glorfindel as later described by JRRT: "The name is in fact derived from the earliest work on the mythology: The Fall of Gondolin, composed in 1916-17. in which the Elvish language that ultimately became Sindarin was in a primitive and unorganized form . . ." [Tolkien then notes that the name "escaped reconsideration" in the final, published Lord of the Rings, then adds] "This is unfortunate, since the name is now difficult to fit into Sindarin, and cannot possibly be Quenyarin."

The early Fall of Gondolin wasn't born in Tolkien's later Middle-earth, so to speak. Rather, and generally speaking, "it lives" in the world of The Lost Tales -- no Second or Third Ages, no Hobbits, very different framework (more connected to England), a different chronology of events, different languages with different histories . . . and so on . . . and even, in one version, Tol Eressea actually becomes England!

Not that any of this proves anything about the matter at hand!

I'm just sayin'

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

I am amazed at how much interest and depth there is in this topic, and totally enjoying all the posts!

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

 

[Eljorahir]

View attachment 14926

Never seen the "OME" abbreviation before. Please tell me it means "Oh My Eru"!

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

One of our younger, hipper members will have clue us in, but most likely "Oh my earth".

I doubt it's "Oh my Edward" in this instance. 😄

But I like yours.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Never seen the "OME" abbreviation before. Please tell me it means "Oh My Eru"!

This was my immediate thought also-- it is totally "OH MY ERU!"

 

[Eljorahir]

This was my immediate thought also-- it is totally "OH MY ERU!"

Sweet! As Eru is my witness, I will never OMG again!!!

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

Sweet! As Eru is my witness, I will never OMG again!!!

You would not take Eru's name so lightly, would you?

 

[Eljorahir]

You would not take Eru's name so lightly, would you?

I'm sure Eru has a sense of humor.

 

[Elbereth Vala Varda]

I'm sure Eru has a sense of humor.

I am sure. Just look at the things he created! Both majestic and amusing!