Are Ringwraiths immortal?

[Lantarion]

Originally posted by Arvedui
gate7ole, IMO, made the most convincing connections, and I believe he is right: the Ringwraiths were not immortal, at least not in the true sense. They just had prolonged life, and would go wherever any Men went after life on Arda.

Gate's case is good, but I'm still unconvinced.. Does that mean that the Ringwraiths would have died naturally at some poinnt?? Just keeled over on some evil mission?
It is a possibility, certainly; and Sauron could corrupt nine new Men into his service as Nazgûl.. But still the idea that they could have died naturally seems very silly to me. As I have seen it, the Nazgûl exist if the Ring exists, or if Sauron exists.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Ah! But it all depends on what is to be understood by death of a mortal, doesn't it?!
For if this concerns the body only... well nothing to wonder so much about.
But I get the impression that it were the fear that Tolkien was much more concerned about and made them much more important than the hroar.
In case of Men... the bodies - visible or not so visible are more easily destroyed.
What about the death of the mortal fea?!

 

[Lantarion]

I thought that the fëar were imperishable?

 

[Arvedui]

I think I did not present my views clear enough, or at least the way I understood gate7ole.
The Ringwraiths would continue to live, or rather exist, as long as the One Ring existed. Therefore, they would not experience natural death.
The way I understand it (now) is that as long as the One Ring existed, so did they.
If it were so, then if the One Ring had not been destroyed, then the Lord of the Nazgûl would have come back after some time.

What do you think of that idea? Does it sound possible? Or was he gone for good?

 

[Lantarion]

Hmm, interesting point; but I think when his 'wraithy' texture was permeated, he became mortal, and so he was killed by Éowyn's 'normal' sword. He still had the utterly evil spirit of Sauron in hiim, hence the strange special effects when he passed away.

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Arvedui
I think I did not present my views clear enough, or at least the way I understood gate7ole.
The Ringwraiths would continue to live, or rather exist, as long as the One Ring existed. Therefore, they would not experience natural death.
The way I understand it (now) is that as long as the One Ring existed, so did they.
If it were so, then if the One Ring had not been destroyed, then the Lord of the Nazgûl would have come back after some time.

What do you think of that idea? Does it sound possible? Or was he gone for good?

Now this idea sounds possible. Let's try to think of it more.
What would mean if the Lord of the Nazgul returned if the Ring was not destroyed? It would possibly mean that by the destruction of his hroa (by Eowyn), his fea did not leave the circles of the world, but waited soemwhere to heal and return with (possibly) a new hroa under Sauron's command again.
This sounds a little like Morgoth's fate who was diminished in powers and was kept locked in the Void, slowly regaining his powers. Or it sounds like Sauron's return after his death at the Last Alliance.
BUT I see a big difference. Morgoth and Sauron were Ainur, which means (among other things) that they were confined in Ea. They could not escape from it. While, the Men and only them leaved after their physical death.
Now, as I see it Sauron managed to keep the Nagzul inside the circles of Ea, by attaching their fea to a less destructible hroa than their mortal one (which could only happen in the Unseen). Any break of connection with the hroa, might lead to the final disconnection of the fea to a hroa and eventually lead to the freeing of the fea from its bonds with Ea. That means that Eowyn actually helped The Witch-King to escape from his "thraldom".

So, I have to disagree with Arvedui. I don't know if this is correct or consistent with Tolkien's writings. I would very much like to hear other opinions of Arvedui's claim.

 

[Beleg]

Now, as I see it Sauron managed to keep the Nagzul inside the circles of Ea, by attaching their fea to a less destructible hroa than their mortal one (which could only happen in the Unseen). Any break of connection with the hroa, might lead to the final disconnection of the fea to a hroa and eventually lead to the freeing of the fea from its bonds with Ea.

You say that Sauron bounded The Ringwraith's fea to a hroa less destructble then their fragile human ones. My Question is that can he do that? How can the fea be transfered from one body to another body without the destruction of the previous Hroa?

The Ringwraiths would continue to live, or rather exist, as long as the One Ring existed. Therefore, they would not experience natural death.

My problem with this idea is that if the Ringwraiths were human, their fea aught to leave Middle Earth as soon as the hroa deterorated and died. Such I think was ordained by Eru, but if Sauron was able to withheld their fea from going out of Middle-earth, then was Sauron a bigger power then Eru? (which seems highly unlikely) That gives rise to the question, Was the Original Hroa of Ringwraith ever destroyed? or if you believe gate's theory, then did Sauron had the power to transfer the fea of a being from one hroa to another?

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Originally posted by Arvedui
The Ringwraiths would continue to live, or rather exist, as long as the One Ring existed. Therefore, they would not experience natural death.
The way I understand it (now) is that as long as the One Ring existed, so did they.
If it were so, then if the One Ring had not been destroyed, then the Lord of the Nazgûl would have come back after some time.

What do you think of that idea? Does it sound possible? Or was he gone for good? [/B]

A good topic for my "What if"-game, don't you think!
Why?
Because:
The Ring not destroyed >> Sauron still exists >> The Lord of the Nazgûl does not actually die under Eowyn's sword >> the battle on Pelennor Fields has quite an opposite outcome >> etc..etc..

Because I somehow too understand it that the Ring got hold on those nine once-men's souls not letting them free even if the bodies were destroyed.
But, on the other hand...could it prove that a Maia at one poin in the history of ME was more powerful than Eru himself if he could control the fate of human souls?!

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
You say that Sauron bounded The Ringwraith's fea to a hroa less destructble then their fragile human ones. My Question is that can he do that? How can the fea be transfered from one body to another body without the destruction of the previous Hroa?

My problem with this idea is that if the Ringwraiths were human, their fea aught to leave Middle Earth as soon as the hroa deterorated and died. Such I think was ordained by Eru, but if Sauron was able to withheld their fea from going out of Middle-earth, then was Sauron a bigger power then Eru? (which seems highly unlikely) That gives rise to the question, Was the Original Hroa of Ringwraith ever destroyed? or if you believe gate's theory, then did Sauron had the power to transfer the fea of a being from one hroa to another?

First don't forget that Sauron was a Necromancer. If someone could do it, then I guess it would be Sauron. Remember that he had the Mouth, a Black Numenorean, in his command.
And I don't see it that the fea had to move from one hroa to another. I see it that Sauron altered the original hroa of the Nazgul, by moving it to the Unseen.

edit
After Lhun’s post, I think I will have to clarify my thinking again. I may be wrong, but it seems to me the most plausible explanation.
The Nazgul are connected to the Ring. Without it, they in a way loose their connection with the Unseen, their bodies perish and the freed fear follow the fate of Men (which Sauron can NOT alter). What did Sauron alter was the hroar, which he made stronger and less destructible (by some way of moving it from the Seen to the Unseen). But still, the hroa IS destructible. It was destroyed by Eowyn. Then my guess is that the Witch-King lost his hroa forever and followed the fate of Men, thus not being able to return again.
There is no change in the fate of anyone by Sauron. That is not possible from anyone else besides Eru. Sauron just managed to give them a fake immortality – fake because after their death they don’t get reborn like the Elves, they follow their predetermined fate as Men.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Now THIS makes sense... FAKE immortality... OK...
THIS I can accept!

For otherwise, the Wraiths could be easily mistaken to have turned into some Maia or... any other sort of immortal spirits.

So... Are they immortal ? I guess... no ?

 

[BlackCaptain]

No, If they were immortal they wouldn't have been destroyed. They're immortal as long as the ring prolongs though... But it didn't so they're not

 

[archery master]

ring raiths immortal?

The ring draws them near

Are ring wraiths immortal well as long is the ring is alive they will be


they used to be great kings given nine rings of power so unitl the one ring is destroyed they will live on
www,yahoo.com

 

[BlackCaptain]

Yes, we've established this about 3 1/2 pages back... . Why the link to Yahoo? Oh well, it's not nesescary. Welcome to the forum!

 

[YayGollum]

Yikes! I missed a lot! oh well. What's that about fake immortality? They were really immortal. just not naturally immortal. It's a bunch of creepy and unfair magical type things that happened to them. Rules are allowed to be broken when you're talking about creepy and unfair magical type things. Anyways, why are people confused about spirits? Every single race in Middle Earth has a spirit. All spirits are immortal. Bodies die. sorry about that. The only mortality type way the Nazgul were different from a normal human is ---> The body doesn't die.

 

[gate7ole]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Yikes! I missed a lot! oh well. What's that about fake immortality? They were really immortal. just not naturally immortal. It's a bunch of creepy and unfair magical type things that happened to them. Rules are allowed to be broken when you're talking about creepy and unfair magical type things. Anyways, why are people confused about spirits? Every single race in Middle Earth has a spirit. All spirits are immortal. Bodies die. sorry about that. The only mortality type way the Nazgul were different from a normal human is ---> The body doesn't die.

So, you suggest that the Nazgul are really immortal, in the way Elves are, and are confined among the circles of Ea? And that they cannot escape and follow their predetermined fate?
I strongly disagree. But I would like to hear your thoughts on it and the complications of changing Eru's rules (which are stated in the Letters as unchangeable by anyone else)

 

[Lantarion]

originally posted by YayGollum
Yikes! I missed a lot! oh well. What's that about fake immortality? They were really immortal. just not naturally immortal. It's a bunch of creepy and unfair magical type things that happened to them. Rules are allowed to be broken when you're talking about creepy and unfair magical type things. Anyways, why are people confused about spirits? Every single race in Middle Earth has a spirit. All spirits are immortal. Bodies die. sorry about that. The only mortality type way the Nazgul were different from a normal human is ---> The body doesn't die.

Hmm, I see what you mean.. That as a result of Sauron prolonging their lives with his 'dark magicks' their fëar might have somehow become disattached from Arda... It's possible, but I doubt it nonetheless.
Anyway, what do you mean by the last sentence (which I show coloured)? If you mean that the bodies of the Nazgûl do not die, I'm afraid you're mistaken: that is shown by at least the events at the Ford of Bruinen..

But so far I think we've reached trh conclusion that the Nazgûl had (Quoting my post on the first page) "unending life as long as the Ring existed. Agreed?

Edit: Moved to Hall of Fire from Books: LotR

 

[YayGollum]

Of course I agree with that last thing. Anyways,

gate7ole person ---> Where do you come up with all of that craziness? I thought I was pretty clear with what I think about the Nazgulish creepy immortality stuff. Sure, I guess you could say that they're confined, but only as long as the One Ring was around to let the nine human rings work. Also, sure, I guess you could say that they can't escape and get to do whatever the human spirits usually do, but only as long as the One Ring was around to let the nine human rings work. I'm not saying that the nine human rings messed with them spiritually. I'm saying that it messed with them physically.

About that Ford of Bruinen thing, I'm not a huge expert on names of things that I don't care about. What part of the story was that?

 

[Lantarion]

The Nazgûl were all "killed" in the sense that their bodily forms were destroyed by the flood caused by Elrond and Gandalf.

 

[YayGollum]

Who says that their bodies died then? I don't see that written anywhere. Maybe you have other creepy little bookses that not a lot of people have. I don't know.

 

[Ithrynluin]

I also don't think that their bodies were destroyed in the flood.

The Fellowship of the Ring; Many Meetings
'And is that the end of the Black Riders?' asked Frodo.
'No,' said Gandalf. 'Their horses must have perished, and without them they are crippled. But the Ringwraiths themselves cannot be so easily destroyed. However, there is nothing more to fear from them at present.

Gandalf supposes that their horses perished but not the Ringwraiths themselves. 'the Ringwraiths themselves cannot be so easily destroyed' makes me think that they can only perish in the same manner as the Witch-king - being slain by a special weapon that negates the spell that binds their invisible flesh together.