Are the battles of the Third Age bigger than those in the First Age?

[Turin_Turambar]

Both the tolkien forum, reddit and Quora users say that the wars of the first age were larger than wars of third age, although the difference is not clear. I think too the wars of the first age are larger. But for some reasons, a few wars in the third age may be larger than some wars of the first age. Because in the wars of the first age, wargs first appeared in Dagor Bragollach, trolls first appeared in Nirnaeth Arnoediad. However, in most of the wars of the Third Age, wargs and trolls were very actively participating in the wars. Anyway, I will give you images showing battle of the pelennor fields and other some wars in the lotr movies and Dagor Bragollach war and war of wrath in the Rings of Power tv series.

battle of the pelennor fields and other wars

Dagor bragollach and war of wrath in rings of power

As you can see, the biggest battles of the third age seem to be larger in scale than Dagor Bragollach and the War of Wrath. My goal is to be as objective as possible and avoid taking any sides and get your opinion. Why do the wars of the third age seem larger?

 

[Ent]

I think it's all based on percentages.
You see, over time population increases, because, well... people like to have babies to cuddle.
In just the last few decades, Earth's population has increased drastically. We really can't even support our population any more, some estimating it really takes just over "1.8 earths" to do so.

So... given the VAST timespan between the FA and the TA, and the massive increase in population, by PERCENTAGE of the population participating, the FA's wars were certainly a 'greater number' of available targets to hit and bodies to send to become corpses.

Of course... there really WERE more Dragons, Balrogs, and the like in the FA, but we're not speaking of those.

There were most likely even far more Trolls to send in the TA than FA.... so the percentage of Trolls in the FA participating was likely larger, too. (Far less Trolls then were devoted to equipment maintenance, gate opening, and the like.)

So that's my take. in terms of raw numbers, opbviously the TA could afford far more bodies to hurl into the battle... but far more were needed to be held behind to maintain 'the nuts and bolts of society' too.

I vote for 'a percentage basis' being the reason some feel the wars of the FA were considered 'larger.'

I'm not sure for 'The Cinema' anyone has ever said the FA wars were 'larger'... I think that thought comes from 'external sources'.

I think 'The Cinema' accurately depicts the reality: there were simply not as many bodies to hurl forward for destruction then. Yet percentage wise it was 'greater'.
This may be (the) one area Cinema gets right.

(p.s. - please don't ask me to prove or validate this... the increase in population is just human nature and lack of restraint, and the rest is unsupportable supposition as a result.)

 

[d4rk3lf]

What?

Let me get this straight...

You're searching for answers about facts (like: numbers of participants in the battles), that Tolkien (intentionally) never gave, and as a reference of proof, you gave Hollywood crap? Rings of Power? LOL.
How ROP can be reference to anything? How PJ movies can be references of such things?

To answer to your initial question (that I read with great interest until I saw Rop screenshots)... yes.. indeed... the first battles were indeed much bigger, imho.
Actually, when I think of it, the size of Rohirim army is about the same size that I imagined when I read the books for the first time (6-7 years before movies), and this is about everything I could agree with PJ.
So, let's say that's 10k Rohirim charging in full speed.
My estimation that 1k Noldors, from the first age, under the leadership of Feanor, and without any horses, would like, absolutely annihilate the whole rohan army...
And let me get even more extreme... Noldor's would have casualties like in few ten's, while Rohirims in few thousands.

 

[Turin_Turambar]

What?

Let me get this straight...

You're searching for answers about facts (like: numbers of participants in the battles), that Tolkien (intentionally) never gave, and as a reference of proof, you gave Hollywood crap? Rings of Power? LOL.
How ROP can be reference to anything? How PJ movies can be references of such things?

To answer to your initial question (that I read with great interest until I saw Rop screenshots)... yes.. indeed... the first battles were indeed much bigger, imho.
Actually, when I think of it, the size of Rohirim army is about the same size that I imagined when I read the books for the first time (6-7 years before movies), and this is about everything I could agree with PJ.
So, let's say that's 10k Rohirim charging in full speed.
My estimation that 1k Noldors, from the first age, under the leadership of Feanor, and without any horses, would like, absolutely annihilate the whole rohan army...
And let me get even more extreme... Noldor's would have casualties like in few ten's, while Rohirims in few thousands.

If you noticed, I did not give these movies and TV series as evidence or sources. I only asked why the wars in the LOTR movies seem to be larger in scale compared to the Battles of Beleriand in Rings of Power. That's all. This is just an opinion consultation.

 

[d4rk3lf]

If you noticed, I did not give these movies and TV series as evidence or sources. I only asked why the wars in the LOTR movies seem to be larger in scale compared to the Battles of Beleriand in Rings of Power. That's all. This is just an opinion consultation.

Oh, then I apologize.

Imho, it's because LOTR movies battles were done from serious guys from Weta team, that were supervised by serious people that wanted to brake barriers in movie making, while Rop is an Amazon travesty that tried to squize a bit of money out of the LOTR name, while hoping no one will notice lack of dedication.

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

I would think that it is just because the LOTR stories are told actively from a present perspective, while the battles of the First Age are told through the language of mythology and cosmogony. It will always seem that battles are larger and more impressive when the characters are active participants in the telling, rather than the relayed and distilled telling of absurdly ancient events.

 

[Ent]

while the battles of the First Age are told through the language of mythology and cosmogony.

YAY. Tolkien reminds us SIL is intended to be 'mythology' with the usual embellishments, enhancements, etc. age and retelling always bring... outsized heroes, dragons breaking 'the peaks of 3 mountains', and such absurd things.

He also tells us TH and LoTR are intentionally more historical.

If we don't get this, we begin to believe SIL as 'literal' rather than consider it as it should be.

Even TH and LoTR contain elements of "outsized retelling" and promulgation of exaggeration if we look.

 

[LaurelinBearsFruit]

@Ent You and I seem to be of like mind, as usual lol

 

[Ent]

You and I seem to be of like mind, as usual lol

It happens, doesn't it?
I would have started there in my first post on the matter, but I decided on the post I chose for a few specific reasons.
And, not everyone agrees with the extent to which SIL should be taken as Mythology, either, unfortunately.

A few elements of it in TH and LoTR showing themselves...just as happens in 'current history'... (which of course is NEVER embellished for any reason whatsoever...)

Ents "Taller than the trees' seen walking. (Ents were only 12-14 feet high. The ones seen after Helm's Deep weren't seen until they came OUT of the trees. Embellishment.)

Oliphaunts "as big as a house" in a rhyme cited. Nope... not gonna happen.

The balrog "breaking the side of the mountain in his fall." Nope, not gonna happen.

The blast of Boromir's horn being heard all the way to Gondor... while it couldn't be heard much closer due to the roar of the falls. Nope, not gonna happen.

Tolkien is presenting 'real life'... and 'real history and how it gets distorted'.. and even 'real present time', which is in MANY cases not told as it actually is.

Tolkien's genius calls us to our own level of discernment somewhat beyond what we mere humans usually employ. Sometimes, the gulf he draws is wider than we can span.