Bald Characters

[norrinradd]

Do you know Tolkien’s bald characters? In the hobbit movie, dwalin is bald but in the notes or books are not described as a bald by Tolkien I think, this is right? Another bald character do you know?

 

[Deleted member 12094]

Barliman Butterbur was bald:

Frodo went forward and nearly bumped into a short fat man with a bald head and a red face. [...] ‘Barliman is my name. Barliman Butterbur at your service!’​

But that's all that I remember at the moment... meanwhile welcome here, Norrinradd!

 

[norrinradd]

Barliman Butterbur was bald:

Frodo went forward and nearly bumped into a short fat man with a bald head and a red face. [...] ‘Barliman is my name. Barliman Butterbur at your service!’​

But that's all that I remember at the moment... meanwhile welcome here, Norrinradd!

Thanks a lot and i want to ask something that is which characters have a dark or swarthy skin in the middle earth? I think Rhun people. But Khamul the Easterling(Second Nazgul) is formerly Easterling soldier but in the movie, all 9 ringwraith is white formerly. I didn’t understand that.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Ahem.

"But there was one swarthy Breelander, who stood looking at them with a knowing and half-mocking expression that made them feel very uncomfortable. Presently he slipped out of the door, followed by the squint-eyed southerner. . ."

. At the Sign of the Prancing Pony

Welcome to the forum, norrinradd!

 

[norrinradd]

But i want to ask khamul the easterling, has khamul a swarthy or dark skin? Or not? Because they said he is from easterling formerly but in the arda wiki fandom said that he is blue eyes etc and in the film all 9 former ringwraiths are white skin.

Ahem.

"But there was one swarthy Breelander, who stood looking at them with a knowing and half-mocking expression that made them feel very uncomfortable. Presently he slipped out of the door, followed by the squint-eyed southerner. . ."

. At the Sign of the Prancing Pony

Welcome to the forum, norrinradd!

And also where Ren Jey who is a Nazgul from? In the wiki fandom, he was born at near Ered Harmal.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

The Fandom Wiki tends to mix media sources. Tolkien Gateway is better at differentiating them clearly.

The only Nazgûl named by Tolkien is Khamul; the others, including Jen Rey, are from the movies and/or games. I can't help you with those, I'm afraid, but you might find some information by looking through older threads on the film forums here.

 

[norrinradd]

The Fandom Wiki tends to mix media sources. Tolkien Gateway is better at differentiating them clearly.

The only Nazgûl named by Tolkien is Khamul; the others, including Jen Rey, are from the movies and/or games. I can't help you with those, I'm afraid, but you might find some information by looking through older threads on the film forums here.

Please can you look my other topic about khamul, thanks

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I did, but can offer nothing more than you know from UT, sorry.

I'll add that the "Southrons" -- I assume Haradrim -- ambushed in Ithilien are described as "swarthy men in red", and the men from Far Harad at the Pelennor Fields have "black skins".

If there is more information, one of our walking encyclopedias will be along sooner or later.

Edit: Oh yes -- most orcs are described as having "sallow" skin, but there's been a lot of argument over the years as to what exactly Tolkien meant by the term.

 

[Olorgando]

JRRT once stated that the Fourth Age may have started about 6000 years ago. So any present-day population distributions would be, when looking at history, a poor guide.
Just think of all of the peoples who have been on the move just in Asia and Europe in the last 2000 years (which would have been about the Sixth Age by JRRT's reckoning, we'd be in about the Seventh). The Celts had been hovering at the edges of the Graeco-Roman "civilized world" or Mediterranean at least 2500 years ago. Germanic tribes started to move about, out of their non-Roman settlement areas at the latest in the fourth century, which also saw the invasion of the Huns. Beginning in the seventh century under the first four Caliphs, the Arab Islamic expansion into North Africa, then Spain, and at least modern Syria and Iraq and some of the former Soviet "Republics". Then the Mongol expansion, which fairly early on became a mixed Mongol-Turkic affair, which reached Europe in the 13th century. Timur in the 14th century did not actually attack Europe, it seems, certainly never got nearly as far west as the Ghengis-Khan and descendants Mongols (and never mind the Huns), but appears to have contributed to the weakening of the Golden Horde (overlords over Russia) to a degree as to make it easier for the Russians to throw off that yoke. And roughly while the Russians started to expand eastward, the Ottoman Turks did the same westwards (as you probably know at least as well as I do), being brought to a final halt at the second, again unsuccessful siege of Vienna in 1683.

So JRRT might have had quite a bit to choose from for his "Easterlings". What of all the above was known to him - archaeology and associated historical sciences have made quite a bit of progress since WW II. Until new results are published can take quite some time, though, and until they become the subject of popular science publications even longer.

So for the nearer "Easterlings" east of Mordor I would guess that they could be equated with Slavic peoples. Further east would mean Mongol, Turkic or a mixture of the two. Southrons would probably mean mostly North Africans, say Berbers and the like, while "Far Harad" is identifiable with Sub-Saharan Africa, But all of this is projecting recent conditions (of perhaps the last 1000 years) into a period, 6000 years ago, which was still clearly Neolithic even in Egypt, Mesepotamia, the Indus Valley and China.

 

[Deleted member 12094]

I don't know if this helps you, Norrinradd: some curse descriptions from a previous discussion.

 

[Aldarion]

Edit: Oh yes -- most orcs are described as having "sallow" skin, but there's been a lot of argument over the years as to what exactly Tolkien meant by the term.

I always took it to mean "unhealthy". The only description I remeber is greenish scales of orc leader in Moria.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

I believe you're thinking of the troll in Moria, possessing a "dark skin of greenish scales".

As for sallow, the question is whether Tolkien was using it in the modern sense or, as often, reaching back to old meanings from Old English, Old Germanic, Old Norse, or other linguistic ancestors, where it could mean "yellowish", "brown", "green", or just "dirty". I've seen arguments for all of them.

 

[Olorgando]

Sallow: my Oxford University Press 2009 second edition English-German / German-English dictionary states yellow; my 1970 sixth edition "Langenscheidts", Germany's most trusted publisher of translation dictionaries, states yellowish; Wikipedia redirects to "Willow", stating "some broader-leaved species are referred to as sallow (from Old English sealh, related to the Latin word salix, willow)"; its related Wiktionary states:
1. (of skin) Yellowish.
1.1 (most regions, of light skin) Of a sickly pale colour.
1.2 (Ireland) (???) Of a tan colour, associated with people from southern Europe or East Asia.
2. (of a person) Having skin (especially on the face) of a sickly pale colour.
3. (of objects or dim light) Having a similar pale, yellowish colour.
4. Dirty; murky.
Synonyms
(sickly pale): See also Thesaurus: pallid

I remember reading somewhere that the Huns of the late (western) Roman Empire period invading Europe of the 5th century would have appeared rather Orcish to Europeans, which would fit with the imprecise "yellowish" description.

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

You can find more by Googling "sallow etymology".

 

[Olorgando]

You can find more by Googling "sallow etymology".

*sarcasm dripping acid on*
see what an old fart can find without Google? 👿
*sarcasm dripping acid off*

 

[norrinradd]

Do you know the bald character in the middle earth according to Tolkien’s writing, tales?

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

Didn't you ask this on another thread?

Yes, you did!

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/bald-characters.28795/

 

[norrinradd]

Didn't you ask this on another thread?

Yes, you did!

https://thetolkien.forum/threads/bald-characters.28795/

Yes, butt i didnt get satifying answer please let me know except Barliman Butter

 

[norrinradd]

I don't know if this helps you, Norrinradd: some curse descriptions from a previous discussion.

I just want to ask something, maybe you can see my thread at Unfinished Tales. If you do not see, I add here now.


We know that; in UT (Hunt for the Ring, journey of the black riders, note 1) says that Khamul was referred to as nick-name that is ”the Black Easterling” in the rejected version of the present passage of Tale of Years. Therefore, Did Tolkien give the nickname (Black Easterling) to Khamul because of he was actually an Easterling?
Otherwise, Tolkien, as the purpose of using this nickname in his work; Did Tolkien want to explain that Khamul was known with this nickname to other middle-earth cultures, races or people and that Khamul is not actually an Easterling?

 

[Firawyn]

Bald, I suppose, is a scale. How bald? Completely?

Gollum/Smeagol was more or less bald, if memory serves from book descriptions. I'd also point out that as a species, Orcs and Goblins generally did not have much in the way of hair.

You didn't specify human characters, after all. Hello, all. *looks wistful* Well, I'm back.