Hm. Looks like he was just commenting how how their limbs weren't visible and they would have worn gauntlets anyhow as they were riders. Also their hoods should have hung over their faces enough to conceal their invisibility.Oh shoot, I just remember that in NoME Tolkien wrote about this some. I'll need to wait until much later tonight before I can get to it. There was a drawing and he was criticizing that they drew a physical hand for one of the Ringwraiths. If I remember correctly he said it should have been gloved and may have gone more into it from there.
The questions are the worst 🙁BTW, you're not the only one who finds some of the answers on quora a bit "odd".
Or even some of the questions. 😀
"One that you cannot slay with arrows,"
you can "slay" these invisible servants with arrows
Yes, the "shape to their nothingness" further adds mud to the waters, but the fact that he can wear a crown on an invisible head flat-out contradicts the idea that mere clothing gives them form. It seems like Tolkien was maybe straddling the fence on the nature of the Ringwraiths and never got around to defining their nature or preferred to leave it ambiguous.How are we to take this? Literally? It wouldn't seem so, as they're able to ride and wield weapons, The Witch-King is even able to wear a crown.
Metaphorically, then? The problem is, with fantasy, it's difficult to sort out the metaphorical from the literal. Or as one critic put it, "In fantasy, there is no safety in metaphor".
Come again? 🤔
I admit however, that Gandalf's remark about Legolas' shot seems odd, if this is so: "One that you cannot slay with arrows," said Gandalf. "You only slew his steed. It was a good deed; but the Rider was soon horsed again. For he was a Nazgul, one of the Nine, who ride now upon winged steeds."
Again, my opinion is that you can "slay" these invisible servants with arrows, you just can't take them out for good -- which is at least possibly what Gandalf means here. In any case, sometimes with Tolkien, you can't have all the relevant texts go easily your way!
I was going to argue this, because the text says, after the Witch-king is felled, "a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world."Ok . . . again
"You cannot destroy Ringwraiths like that," said Gandalf. "The power of their master is in them, and they stand or fall by him" The Ring Goes South
lol Just imagine them waltzing around naked like the Invisible Man in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen film (Dorian Grey was played by the actor originally cast as Aragorn).Just to add to the chaos, l'll point out that "unclad" could open a whole new can of. . .of. . .Schrodinger's Nazgul?
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I watched this again a few days ago on DVD, and the comparison to the Nazgûl did occur to me - including the matter of "invisibility gadgets" having to "know" what besides the person using them they have to make invisible, which kind of leads to no end of silliness ...lol Just imagine them waltzing around naked like the Invisible Man in the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen film ...
The guy would have only turned 27 after original filming began, and have been 28 when they finished. What, a "Pippin Aragorn"? I found even Viggo to be a tad on the young side for the role ... 🤨... (Dorian Grey was played by the actor originally cast as Aragorn).
lol Often. I think it works when it's an ingested substance as that would imply interaction with tissues to cause the invisibility. In Buffy the Vampire Slayer it was just magic so it worked however the plot needed.I watched this again a few days ago on DVD, and the comparison to the Nazgûl did occur to me - including the matter of "invisibility gadgets" having to "know" what besides the person using them they have to make invisible, which kind of leads to no end of silliness ...
Do we know at what rate they aged, though? I mean, what did 87 look like for a Dúnedain?
In Carl F. Hostetter's "The Nature of Middle-earth", "Part Three: The World, its Lands, and its Inhabitants" there is chapter XII "The Ageing of the Númenóreans" which I just glanced at - a very short chapter.Do we know at what rate they aged, though? I mean, what did 87 look like for a Dúnedain?
I’m going to come at this from a slightly different angle. Gandalf’s statement is polemic: “contentious rhetoric intended to support a specific position”. But I’ll go even further: This is an example of religious polemic in The Lord of the Rings.Here's [an ambiguous statement about the Nazgûl] from Gandalf:
'. . .the black robes are real robes that they wear to give shape to their nothingness when they have dealings with the living.'
How are we to take this? Literally? It wouldn't seem so, as they're able to ride and wield weapons, The Witch-King is even able to wear a crown.
Metaphorically, then? The problem is, with fantasy, it's difficult to sort out the metaphorical from the literal. Or as one critic put it, "In fantasy, there is no safety in metaphor".
[H]ow are [the Nazgûl] to don the clothing without corporeal form?
I think Olorgando is right on target here. After Frodo awakens in Rivendell, Gandalf tells him that whenever he wore the Ring, he was already “half in the wraith-world [himself], and they might have seized [him]. [Frodo] could see them, and they could see [him].” The Nazgûl had become permanently invisible. Gandalf describes it to Frodo (FotR, “Shadow of the Past”) exactly this way, using exactly the word Tolkien uses to describe what happens to Elves in Middle-earth after many millennia:The[ Nazgûl] became invisible, yes - that seems to be one side effect of a Great Ring on Humans (Big and Little Folk). Now I've stated before that I consider The Hobbit, author-published though it be, to be shaky as canon. But when things get threatening at the Battle of Five Armies, Bilbo puts on the One Ring - but still gets conked on the head and passes out. Sauron may have been able to convert the Nazgûl into a perverted form of Elves, with their unnatural wraithing (natural for very old Elves)… I don't buy the "embodiment by clothing" theory. They were "simply" (permanently) invisible. … [T]hey couldn't walk through walls like "popular" ghosts…
I think that’s right, too. In FotR, “Knife in the Dark”, Strider explains,[The Nazgûl’s] ability to perceive our world [was] dimmed - so the[ir] taking time to get back home through territory they can only imperfectly perceive - sort of through a kind of fog - makes sense.
[The Nazgûl] seem to have been invulnerable to bodily hurts massively more so than they would have been in human form…
Were they just completely invulnerable then? How else could they continue to exist once experiencing acts that should have been fatal?
One of the more “attractive” powers of the Great Rings, at least to Mortal Men, seems to be that they cannot be killed as long as they possess them – or, after they have fallen completely under the necromantic power of their Rings, those Rings “possess” them. (Sauron seems to have held physical possession of the Nine Rings at the time of The Lord of the Rings, though some dispute this.) In FotR, “The Ring Goes South”, Gandalf explains that the Ringwraiths survived the flood at the Ford of Bruinen:However you want to put it, they were apparently invulnerable to "normal" hazards, unless a counterspell, such as those incorporated into the Barrow-blades, were brought into play. This is what allowed Eowyn to "kill" the Witch-King.
Normally I agree with your positions, Elthir, but on this one I’ll prefer the “(it would seem) popular notion that Merry's strike made the Witch-king vulnerable”. What Tolkien did say about the Barrow-blades is cited in Reader’s Companion in the chapter on “Knife in the Dark”:I don't agree with the (it would seem) popular notion that Merry's strike made the Witch-king vulnerable to other swords. This isn't stated in the description about Merry's dagger…
[The Witch-king] now knows who is the Bearer, and is greatly puzzled that it should be a small creature, and not Aragorn, who seems to be a great power though apparently “only a Ranger”. …It is a strange thing that the camp was not watched while darkness lasted…, and the crossing of the Road into the southward lands seems not to have been observed, so that [the Witch-king] again lost track of the Ring. For this there were probably several reasons, the least to be expected being the most important, namely that [the Witch-king] … was actually dismayed. … [A]bove all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by his own enemies long ago for his destruction. Narrowly it had missed him. How he had come by it – save in the Barrows of Cardolan. Then he was in some way mightier than the B[arrow]-wight; and he called on Elbereth, a name of terror to the Nazgûl. …Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor-knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew and hid for a while, out of doubt and fear both of Aragorn and especially of Frodo.May God forgive me: I am such a fool! I should be asleep instead of posting!
( . . .) Normally I agree with your positions, Elthir, but on this one I’ll prefer the “(it would seem) popular notion that Merry's strike made the Witch-king vulnerable”. What Tolkien did say about the Barrow-blades is cited in Reader’s Companion in the chapter on “Knife in the Dark”:
( . . . )
What was Tolkien referring to here? Was he confusing Sam with Frodo?And I'm aware of this quote, but on the other hand, what of this one (letter 210): "There is no fight. Sam does not "sink his blade into the Rinwraith's thigh", nor does the thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20 the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)"
Elthir my friend, I believe I can answer you, and at the same time shed some light on how the Great Rings affected Elves and Men necromantically – for Sauron, who led the Elven-smiths of Eregion to forge them as they were, is The Necromancer.
When Merry stabbed the Witch-king in his contest with Éowyn, I think he took out one of the Witch-king’s tendons behind his knee, so that he was injured (he cried out in pain), he no longer had stability to remain standing, and the swing of his mace went wide of his target: to wit, Éowyn’s head. Even if Sam (in Zimmerman’s proposed alteration of Tolkien’s tale) missed any major tendons and only stabbed into muscle with a Barrow-blade, I expect it would still have been a painful experience like none other the Witch-king had encountered since becoming enslaved to his Ring: I think that was Tolkien’s point; besides, Tolkien was immensely annoyed with Zimmerman’s proposed alterations of his tale.[W]hat of this [quote] (letter 210): "There is no fight. Sam does not "sink his blade into the Rinwraith's thigh", nor does the thrust save Frodo's life. (If he had, the result would have been much the same as in III 117-20 the Wraith would have fallen down and the sword would have been destroyed.)"
The Wraith falls down. One doesn't necessarily fall down from being stabbed in the thigh with a dagger, but I might fall too if I could no longer will my limbs to do what I wanted them to do.
I can’t prove my position. I can only offer what seems to me a sound and reasonable explanation that, to my mind, works well with what most of us can agree is material Tolkien presents in the rest of his legendarium.That said, it may be that Tolkien was musing about this make-you-vulnerable idea in the quote you provided, but (and not that you said otherwise) I don't feel it's a necessary conclusion based on what happens in the published text, including the description of the blade that follows the stab…
I think the situation with the Oath-beakers is entirely different from that of the Nazgûl. Gollum, Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam could all attack and injure others while wearing the One Ring, and they could also be injured while wearing it. I don’t know that the Dead Men of Dunharrow did more than terrify the mariners and soldiers of Umbar: Gimli remarked that at Pelargir,Tolkien illustrates a "necessary" concern with respect to the Oath-breakers, or at least (I think wisely) acknowledges to the reader that they were not necessarily a "ghost force" that yet could kill the living…
First of all, I don’t think Sauron still possessed the ability to shift shape. I think he and the Balrogs were stuck in the incarnations they wore. (The same had become true for Melkor Morgoth by the end of the First Age, and he was a Vala!) Before the destruction of his first avatar in the Downfall of Númenor, Sauron could change his appearance at will, as we see in the fight with Huan at the Bridge of Tol Sirion, or when he disguised himself as Annatar to deceive the Mírdain of Eregion. I think this ability was lost after Númenor.
I absolutely agree with you, Elthir. I think the Barrow-blades are most unique! I believe it’s significant that Tom Bombadil chose them for the Hobbits, knowing that they would sooner or later have to face the Ringwraiths: he clearly knew what they were and why they were made. I think Frodo used one on the Barrow-wight, but all it did to the Barrow-wight was sever its hand at the wrist, splinter immediately (I suspect that’s a property of the blade’s striking a creature in the “wraith world”), and piss it off mightily: It cried out, then snarled. The spell that allowed an evil spirit to inhabit a corpse in the barrow (perhaps that of the last Prince of Cardolan) was different from the one that bound the hröa of the Witch-king to his fëa. Bombadil broke the Barrow-wight’s binding spell.[W]e don't (or at least I don't) get the impression that this magic type of "make you vulnerable" weapon is the norm in Gondor, Rohan, or Imladris, for examples.
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