Depictions of Balrogs

Ent said:

1. It is written the head of a man comes about to the waist/stomache of the balrog. In the one big picture above, Gandalf doesn't even reach his knee.

Click to expand...

Hello Sir Ent. Is this in reference to The Book of Lost Tales (BLT) version of The Fall of Gondolin:
"(for that demon was double his stature)"?

If so, "his" refers to Glorfindel of course, but not only are we dealing with the BLT version of Balrogs here, but also with the BLT version of Glorfindel (meaning, now we might investigate how tall Tolkien's Elves were in this early conception).

When Tuor arrives in Gondolin, a throng of Gnomes appear, rejoicing that another of the Noldoli had fled there from Melko "and marvelling at the stature and the gaunt limbs of Tuor."

Then we read:

"Tis written that in those days the fathers of the fathers of Men were of less stature than Men now are, and the children of Elfinesse of greater growth, yet was Tuor taller than any that stood there. Indeed the Gondothlim were not bent of back as some of their unhappy kin became, labouring without rest at delving and hammering for Melko, but small were they and slender and very lithe."

Okay, the Gnomes here were small and slender, but how small?

According to the conception in general, Men were smaller in Gondolin's day than they are "now", and the Elves greater (than they are now), so that they were, generally speaking, almost of like stature, despite that Tuor made the Gnomes marvel . . . but in the following, there is a "puzzling" piece of the . . . puzzle?

Nuin's words to Tu on the stature of the sleepers in the vale of Murmenalda are curious. In A is added: "Men were almost of a stature at first with Elves, the fairies being far greater and Men smaller than now. As the power of Men has grown the fairies have dwindled and Men waxed somewhat."

Click to expand...

Other early statements indicate that Men and Elves were originally of very similar stature, and that the diminishing in that of the Elves was closely related to the coming of, and the dominance of, Men.

Click to expand...

Nuin's words are therefore puzzling, especially since in A they immediately preceded the comment on the original similarity of size; for he can surely only mean that the sleepers in Murmenalda were very large by comparison with the Elves. That the sleepers were in fact children, not merely likened in some way to children, is made clear in D: "Nuin finds the Slumbrous Dale (Murmenalda) where countless children lie." Christopher Tolkien, The Book of Lost Tales

Click to expand...

Nuin had said...

" . . . nor any the more when Nuin made an end of his tale, telling of all he saw there -- and methought," said he, "that all who slumbered there were children, yet was their stature that of the greatest of the Elves."

Anyway, is that what Tolkien was thinking when he wrote Glorfindel's duel with the Balrog in
The Fall of Gondolin?

I don't know! Then why bring it up? I don't know! And what did an older Tolkien mean when he said that the duel between Glorfindel and the demon man need revision? Well, that could mean plenty of things of course!

Anywho, back to Balrogs . . .

Whatever JRRT imagined back in BLT, when he began this chapter in The Fellowship of the Ring, the Balrog is seemingly "reduced" to man high!

"A figure strode to the fissure, no more than man-high yet terror seemed to go before it."

But then (italics as published in HOME): "Alter description of Balrog. It seemed to be of man's shape, but its form could not be plainly discerned. It felt larger than it looked." JRRT

But then, for publication, Tolkien introduces the demon this way: " . . . of man-shape maybe, yet greater;" then add the debate about what is meant exactly by "greater", or, what is meant exactly by Mr. Balrog drawing itself up to a great height.

Cough. Anyway, if Gandalf was at least 5 feet 6 inches (as JRRT explained in a late note), a 10 foot Balrog for instance, would be a huge adversary with respect to exchanging sword blows. I don't know, today I think (opinion alert) man shape but greater implies something like 6.5 to 7 feet --
if "greater" includes height.

Gandalf could "grow" too or seemed to here

"In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill." The Fellowship of the Ring, A Journey in the Dark

OK. so it is (more than) entirely possible the balrog is even of LESSER stature (in height) than it is being given by Ent (and a very few others).
This does not displease Ent at all... what we have is an ordinary Sasquatch, more or less. Now we know why they're so hard to find these days.
Thank you again for your extensive provision.
Ent is going to print this one out and tuck it in his 'Balrogs" folder, where he still plans to do a writing/versification about them at some point.

Aside: I'm not wedded to a maximum of seven feet. I could go taller, but I'm certainly not in the thirty or forty foot camp. . .

. . . if such a camp exists, that is

Elthir said:

but I'm certainly not in the thirty or forty foot camp

Click to expand...

Whaaaaaatttt???? Really?

Elthir said:

if such a camp exists, that is

Click to expand...

umnhhh... there is much 'evidence that demands a verdict' the camp is alive and well..!!!

Ent said:

the camp is alive and well..!!!

Click to expand...

I would have thought that: ''Alive and KICKING'', might be more appropriate.

Could Godzilla be considered a Seventh Age Balrog? 🤓

EDIT: WHAT THE ... 😳😳😳

I too tried painting Gandalf and the Balrog at school several times. I wasn't happy with any of my attempts and they are all long gone. The Balrog is supposed to be shadowy and dark, yet fiery within. A key component of successful depiction, it seems to me, is to find a way of reconciling those two aspects. This is probably heresy, but I actually think the depiction of the Balrog in Peter Jackson's film is excellent. Apparently he (or someone on his team) took, as a starting point, an image of lava flowing underwater, the outer hardened crust continually breaking as it moves to reveal the fire within. Great concept.

I think the bridge is far too thin and I was still reeling from the absurdity of orcs climbing up the walls and onto the ceiling of the great hall. But I think the Balrog was great.

Bellerophon said:

the depiction of the Balrog in Peter Jackson's film is

Click to expand...

for me in my personal opinion, PJ's conception is:
1) - too big. oversized according to Tolkien's indications.
2) - needs to lose the horns. Never mentioned in any Tolkien indications... they come from preconceptions of what 'demons' are 'supposed to' look like from a number of prior depictions.
3) - Not generally 'human looking enough' in overall appearance... as Tolkien's indications suggest the balrog appeared.

The concept of the 'lava' issue, for the 'fire within', etc. is a good thought.... but someone needs to figure out how to stick a generally man-like, sasquatch sized figure (9-10 feet tall only or so) inside some "shadow making it look bigger than it is," with fire streaming out of its 'mane' (which is actually the shadow and fire itself appearing to make a 'mane') - the shadow also able to 'spread wall to wall' into the bargain at the right time.

Terror oozes from the Balrog as a 'palpable thing', not as a visual beastly appearance thing.

But cinematically, that's pretty difficult.

PJ made a very nice demon, generally compliant with preconceived notions based on prior efforts. (and in some ways reminiscent of that ridiculous demon in the early Tom Cruise vehicle Legend - though that demon was more appropriately sized. Without horns, it might make a good model to work around..!)

Elthir said:

BLT version of Balrogs

Click to expand...

Squint-eyed Southerner said:

Elthir said:

BLT version of Balrogs

Click to expand...

View attachment 28827

Click to expand...

Ah, an in-between snack for Hobbits that does not count as one of the six full meals ...
*burp* 🥴

Squint-eyed Southerner said:

View attachment 28827

Click to expand...

"I specifically said no wings on my Balrog club!"

Radaghast said:

Well, here's my woeful attempt of old (don't say I didn't warn you 😆).
View attachment 22718
I think I was 19 at the time (I won't say the year but it was well before the movies). It was my first attempt (of only a few) at using gouache. Anyway, so much wrong with this and I made it worse by trying to delineate with ink🤢

But as pertains to the Balrog in particular, for one thing it's too small. I don't think the Balrog should be twenty feet but it should still tower over Gandalf. For another I don't know what I was thinking with sword and whip. Yikes 😬

Click to expand...

Impressive!
I am glad you drew it without wings. If it had wings, why would it have fallen?

However, as Balrogs are Maiar who have assumed monstrous forms, we should consider the possibility that some Balrogs may have had wings, while others may not have had wings.

In Chapter 9 of Quenta Silmarillion (“Of the flight of the Noldor”) Morgoth and Ungoliant have fled Valinor, and are approaching the ruins of Angband, when Ungoliant tries to take the Silmarils from Morgoth by force. Morgoth “sent forth a terrible cry, that echoed in the mountains.” This cry was heard by the Balrogs. “Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband … Balrogs lurked still, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight …”

Hithlum and Lammoth are large areas (on the map of Beleriand in my copy of the Silmarillion). As Balrogs were able to pass over these area in minutes to come to Morgoth’s aid, I am guessing that those Balrogs had the power of flight.

Zahin Hasan said:

Impressive!
I am glad you drew it without wings. If it had wings, why would it have fallen?

However, as Balrogs are Maiar who have assumed monstrous forms, we should consider the possibility that some Balrogs may have had wings, while others may not have had wings.

In Chapter 9 of Quenta Silmarillion (“Of the flight of the Noldor”) Morgoth and Ungoliant have fled Valinor, and are approaching the ruins of Angband, when Ungoliant tries to take the Silmarils from Morgoth by force. Morgoth “sent forth a terrible cry, that echoed in the mountains.” This cry was heard by the Balrogs. “Far beneath the ruined halls of Angband … Balrogs lurked still, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire. With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to flight …”

Hithlum and Lammoth are large areas (on the map of Beleriand in my copy of the Silmarillion). As Balrogs were able to pass over these area in minutes to come to Morgoth’s aid, I am guessing that those Balrogs had the power of flight.

Click to expand...

How do we know they came within minutes?

Zahin Hasan said:

If it had wings, why would it have fallen?

Click to expand...

Ostrich, swallowing a sob: what did my kind ever do to you?!

Tyelkormo the Fair said:

Ostrich, swallowing a sob: what did my kind ever do to you?!

Click to expand...

ostriches and penguins, I humbly beg your pardon.

Here's another thread to peruse, when you have a couple of hours to kill :

This one is actually pretty good! As mentioned before, there is an issue with scale in this

Radaghast said:

Somehow, though, I'm not sure that is the worst. I don't know how anyone could have read the book and come up with this:

Click to expand...

Then there's this one by the Bros. Hildebrandt.


More or less ridiculous than the one before (and is that a grass skirt it's wearing)?

No that is clearly hair covering his groin.

Ent said:

PJ's fostering of an unfortunate theological gaffe is another way he shows he hasn't a clue what Tolkien's work is about.

Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth.

I think the way Tolkien describes the balrog of Moria is meant to be vague, as things are in shadow. I remember making up a vision every time I read the books, and they weren't anything like what is commonly depicted. I guestimated the balrog to be 10-12 feet high in the shape of a man but shrouded in smoke and shadow which made for the appearance of a 'mane' and 'wings'. Can't say I have ever seen any artwork that comes close to how I see a balrog, and I'm no artist so there will be no attempt at trying to sketch one. I do remember laughing when I saw the 'lion-moth' in the Bakshi film, and thinking that PJ's depiction was a modest improvement.

Where the 'horns' and 'actual' wings come from as opposed to shadows that appear as wings I have no clue. Yet they are 'seen' by artists that have read the books before the Bakshi and PJ movies came out. Remembering all the 'Do Balrogs have Wings discussions and arbuments of 25 years ago on the various forums... the age-old arguments about whether balrogs have wings or not...

Halasían said:

Ain't that the truth.

I think the way Tolkien describes the balrog of Moria is meant to be vague, as things are in shadow. I remember making up a vision every time I read the books, and they weren't anything like what is commonly depicted. I guestimated the balrog to be 10-12 feet high in the shape of a man but shrouded in smoke and shadow which made for the appearance of a 'mane' and 'wings'. Can't say I have ever seen any artwork that comes close to how I see a balrog, and I'm no artist so there will be no attempt at trying to sketch one. I do remember laughing when I saw the 'lion-moth' in the Bakshi film, and thinking that PJ's depiction was a modest improvement.

Where the 'horns' and 'actual' wings come from as opposed to shadows that appear as wings I have no clue. Yet they are 'seen' by artists that have read the books before the Bakshi and PJ movies came out. Remembering all the 'Do Balrogs have Wings discussions and arbuments of 25 years ago on the various forums... the age-old arguments about whether balrogs have wings or not...

Click to expand...

Well, he is male and he has the skeletal face of that of a goat and male goats have horns.