Tar-Elenion
Elite
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2002
- Messages
- 745
Tolkien does not explicitly say, to my knowledge, so I cannot answer with a yes or no.
My dear @Fihsouu, having reviewed all I have at hand to review, I have come to my conclusion.
Amazing analysis.My dear @Fihsouu, having reviewed all I have at hand to review, I have come to my conclusion.
I can clearly say this: the text is unclear.
We know he created the Ainur "before aught else was made". as @Tar-Elenion has already pointed out.
We know the Ainur were "with him." We have no idea what that means. He requires no space, position, location, or 'spot' to exist. He just 'is'. So they were likely in the same condition.
We know AFTER their singing, he 'takes them out into the void'. The void is a place - a specific existence 'somewhere' other than where they were already. It is my suspicion Eru created it in the instant he 'took them out to it.' But this is purely opinion.
And we know the text says "For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing:"
So in my view the Timeless Halls were created ere they sang, to contain their vision as a 'foreshowing', and preceded the Void, as the Void did not exist until Eru took them into it. There was simply no need for it.
Now that the Music contained in the Timeless Halls was completed, Eru made the place for it to Become. (The Void.) Then, "WITHIN the Void but not a part of it," their music Became.
So from my perspective, thus in my opinion, a 'sequence of events' is laid out by the text that gives the order Ainur, Timeless Halls, Void, Ea.
That's the best I can do.
Arguments to and fro can be made... and who knows, there may be other references out there somewhere that provide a slightly different sequence of events. I know of none.
That's the best I've got.
In other words, I concur with your opinion on the sequence of events.
The most difficult thing for the mind to [attempt to] conceive of is "nothing"; that is, non-existence.
Our minds demand boundaries, limits, anything physical to grasp, so as to have a reference point , or points.
Yeah, I have heard of this interpretation before. The void is basically where the being of Eru doesn't reach willing. It is the same concept of hell in Christianity. god is all-present and exists everywhere but he chooses where his light reaches and can limit his light.If Tolkien says (in the footnote Tar-Elenion referenced) the 'Void', [is] a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ea"
then Eru didn't create it.
The most difficult thing for the mind to [attempt to] conceive of is "nothing"; that is, non-existence.
Our minds demand boundaries, limits, anything physical to grasp, so as to have a reference point , or points.
Everyone has seen a rising full moon. It looks huge especially as seen through tree branches or right above a meadow.
The later in the evening/night when it's far higher in the sky, it looks smaller. But it hasn't changed at all.
The moon measures 1/2 degree (of arc) when it rises, and it still measures 1/2 deg when it's overhead.
But it looks smaller because our brain no longer as the trees or meadow as reference points.
Think of light, and darkness. When we think of darkness we think of it as a "thing" because we still see things in it; that is the "darkness" contains things.
But for a physicist there is light, and then there is no light,: darkness is the absence of light.
It is not a thing in itself, it is the absence of light, and it is only defined by the absence of light.
There is Eru, who is all, everything, all being (no beginning, no end), all knowing,
Where he is, is existence, if only his own. Where he is not, is the Void... not a place, just nothing, non-existence, or as Tolkien say, "non-being" .
The Void is defined as where Eru is not. But Eru is everywhere, so the Void is.....nothing.
Goldilocks Gamgee actually nailed (with impeccable logic, I might add) ..
".... Is the Void a literal place, or is it the absence of a place (i.e. empty nothingness)? Because, if it's the second option, then Eru would not need to create it. If it is, then it would have to be created by Eru Illuvatar, of he would not be the God of this universe.
Can you elaborate what you mean by this?So you're likely right... the "Void" would be a given 'first thing' because even Eru (God) has to exist 'someplace', thus, a Void is mentally constructed.
I can try. What I'm trying to say (based on the paragraph just before that comment) is that MOST people can't, don't or won't grapple with the concepts of "be".Can you elaborate what you mean by this?
Which "it" is incorrect?While I agree if Tolkien said in a foot note it's outside Creation or Ea, then it would be 'first'.
That said, I tend to disagree with your first statement in this respect.
The most difficult thing for the mind to grapple with and attempt to conceive, is a god who does not even need a void.
An existence without need for any space-time construct at all.
Not even a 'void'. (As we know, even what we think of as 'void' or 'space' is filled with both matter and energy.)
If this is what you mean.... that there is virtually 'nothing' at all except Being, not even the 'nothingness' of void, then you're correct.
Tolkien does hold the Catholic conception of "God", as do many other of the 'Christian' denominations etc., - and so apply the concept to Eru...though that conception isn't quite accurate.
So you're likely right... the "Void" would be a given 'first thing' because even Eru (God) has to exist 'someplace', thus, a Void is mentally constructed. to exist even before any act of 'creation' occurs.
Sadly, it's incorrect.
The concept that the "be" needs to have a place - even a void - to "be" is incorrect.Which "it" is incorrect?
Noting that the 'Void' that Melkor "was sent to" (at least as the mythology developed), was not the timeless Void outside creation, but rather the Void beyond Arda (the Solar System). Or what could be called interstellar space.Yeah, I have heard of this interpretation before. The void is basically where the being of Eru doesn't reach willing. It is the same concept of hell in Christianity. god is all-present and exists everywhere but he chooses where his light reaches and can limit his light.
It is backed up by the fact that melkor was sent to the void as a punishment similar to hell.
Quote for me again(?) please where he says this (Was it in a letter or is it an inference made from something he wrote in the Silmarillion?)The concept that the "be" needs to have a place - even a void - to "be" is incorrect.
In other words for me, "be" precedes "void". They do not coexist from eternity, as most 'christians'; feel they do. Void is a creation of the 'be'.
So most Christians (and Tolkien's statement that the Void 'precedes' all creation') may be correct for Eru and Tolkien's created world...but it is not correct outside of Tolkien's work.
Yet our focus here is Tolkien's work, not that which is outside it.
If the Void is a conception... 'outside Creation or Ea'.... then in terms of its relationship to Creation (Ainur, Timelesss Halls, Ea etc.) it ipso facto means the Void 'precedes' all created things.If Tolkien says (in the footnote Tar-Elenion referenced) the 'Void', [is] a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ea"
But Tolkien said the Void was non-being, and "non-being" is nothing, i.e., no thing, a null.
That's why I say in Tolkien's world and head it works, and so there we have it.ut Tolkien said the Void was non-being, and "non-being" is nothing, i.e., no thing, a nul
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