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Did Eru Create The Void Beyond Ea?

Sorry, I was referring to the void quotes rather than the Eru=Judeo-Christian God. Can you summarise the void question and quotes. Did he create the void? A simple yes or no will do.
Tolkien does not explicitly say, to my knowledge, so I cannot answer with a yes or no.
The closest thing to an answer would be Eru "...made first the Ainur, the Holy Ones, that were the offspring of his thought, and they were with him before aught else was made..."
So either the Void (Not-being) was there with God (a part of God?), before the Ainur, or Not-being is created by God as well.
Noting Tolkien's comment:
"* [footnote to the text] Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ea, with the conception of vast spaces within Ea, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System)."
 
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In my opinion, Eru basically created the the timeless halls which is a realm above the void, then created space(Void) which he used to make his creation.
My dear @Fihsouu, having reviewed all I have at hand to review, I have come to my conclusion.
I can clearly say this: the text is unclear.
We know he created the Ainur "before aught else was made". as @Tar-Elenion has already pointed out.

We know the Ainur were "with him." We have no idea what that means. He requires no space, position, location, or 'spot' to exist. He just 'is'. So they were likely in the same condition.

We know AFTER their singing, he 'takes them out into the void'. The void is a place - a specific existence 'somewhere' other than where they were already. It is my suspicion Eru created it in the instant he 'took them out to it.' But this is purely opinion.

And we know the text says "For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing:"

So in my view the Timeless Halls were created ere they sang, to contain their vision as a 'foreshowing', and preceded the Void, as the Void did not exist until Eru took them into it. There was simply no need for it.

Now that the Music contained in the Timeless Halls was completed, Eru made the place for it to Become. (The Void.) Then, "WITHIN the Void but not a part of it," their music Became.

So from my perspective, thus in my opinion, a 'sequence of events' is laid out by the text that gives the order Ainur, Timeless Halls, Void, Ea.

That's the best I can do.
Arguments to and fro can be made... and who knows, there may be other references out there somewhere that provide a slightly different sequence of events. I know of none.

That's the best I've got.

In other words, I concur with your opinion on the sequence of events.
 
My dear @Fihsouu, having reviewed all I have at hand to review, I have come to my conclusion.
I can clearly say this: the text is unclear.
We know he created the Ainur "before aught else was made". as @Tar-Elenion has already pointed out.

We know the Ainur were "with him." We have no idea what that means. He requires no space, position, location, or 'spot' to exist. He just 'is'. So they were likely in the same condition.

We know AFTER their singing, he 'takes them out into the void'. The void is a place - a specific existence 'somewhere' other than where they were already. It is my suspicion Eru created it in the instant he 'took them out to it.' But this is purely opinion.

And we know the text says "For the Great Music had been but the growth and flowering of thought in the Timeless Halls, and the Vision only a foreshowing:"

So in my view the Timeless Halls were created ere they sang, to contain their vision as a 'foreshowing', and preceded the Void, as the Void did not exist until Eru took them into it. There was simply no need for it.

Now that the Music contained in the Timeless Halls was completed, Eru made the place for it to Become. (The Void.) Then, "WITHIN the Void but not a part of it," their music Became.

So from my perspective, thus in my opinion, a 'sequence of events' is laid out by the text that gives the order Ainur, Timeless Halls, Void, Ea.

That's the best I can do.
Arguments to and fro can be made... and who knows, there may be other references out there somewhere that provide a slightly different sequence of events. I know of none.

That's the best I've got.

In other words, I concur with your opinion on the sequence of events.
Amazing analysis.
 
If Tolkien says (in the footnote Tar-Elenion referenced) the 'Void', [is] a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ea"
then Eru didn't create it.

The most difficult thing for the mind to [attempt to] conceive of is "nothing"; that is, non-existence.
Our minds demand boundaries, limits, anything physical to grasp, so as to have a reference point , or points.

Everyone has seen a rising full moon. It looks huge especially as seen through tree branches or right above a meadow.
The later in the evening/night when it's far higher in the sky, it looks smaller. But it hasn't changed at all.
The moon measures 1/2 degree (of arc) when it rises, and it still measures 1/2 deg when it's overhead.
But it looks smaller because our brain no longer as the trees or meadow as reference points.

Think of light, and darkness. When we think of darkness we think of it as a "thing" because we still see things in it; that is the "darkness" contains things.
But for a physicist there is light, and then there is no light,: darkness is the absence of light.
It is not a thing in itself, it is the absence of light, and it is only defined by the absence of light.

There is Eru, who is all, everything, all being (no beginning, no end), all knowing,
Where he is, is existence, if only his own. Where he is not, is the Void... not a place, just nothing, non-existence, or as Tolkien say, "non-being" .
The Void is defined as where Eru is not. But Eru is everywhere, so the Void is.....nothing.

Goldilocks Gamgee actually nailed (with impeccable logic, I might add) ..
".... Is the Void a literal place, or is it the absence of a place (i.e. empty nothingness)? Because, if it's the second option, then Eru would not need to create it. If it is, then it would have to be created by Eru Illuvatar, of he would not be the God of this universe.
 
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The most difficult thing for the mind to [attempt to] conceive of is "nothing"; that is, non-existence.
Our minds demand boundaries, limits, anything physical to grasp, so as to have a reference point , or points.

While I agree if Tolkien said in a foot note it's outside Creation or Ea, then it would be 'first'.

That said, I tend to disagree with your first statement in this respect.
The most difficult thing for the mind to grapple with and attempt to conceive, is a god who does not even need a void.
An existence without need for any space-time construct at all.
Not even a 'void'. (As we know, even what we think of as 'void' or 'space' is filled with both matter and energy.)

If this is what you mean.... that there is virtually 'nothing' at all except Being, not even the 'nothingness' of void, then you're correct.

Tolkien does hold the Catholic conception of "God", as do many other of the 'Christian' denominations etc., - and so apply the concept to Eru...though that conception isn't quite accurate.

So you're likely right... the "Void" would be a given 'first thing' because even Eru (God) has to exist 'someplace', thus, a Void is mentally constructed. to exist even before any act of 'creation' occurs.

Sadly, it's incorrect.
 
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If Tolkien says (in the footnote Tar-Elenion referenced) the 'Void', [is] a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ea"
then Eru didn't create it.

The most difficult thing for the mind to [attempt to] conceive of is "nothing"; that is, non-existence.
Our minds demand boundaries, limits, anything physical to grasp, so as to have a reference point , or points.

Everyone has seen a rising full moon. It looks huge especially as seen through tree branches or right above a meadow.
The later in the evening/night when it's far higher in the sky, it looks smaller. But it hasn't changed at all.
The moon measures 1/2 degree (of arc) when it rises, and it still measures 1/2 deg when it's overhead.
But it looks smaller because our brain no longer as the trees or meadow as reference points.

Think of light, and darkness. When we think of darkness we think of it as a "thing" because we still see things in it; that is the "darkness" contains things.
But for a physicist there is light, and then there is no light,: darkness is the absence of light.
It is not a thing in itself, it is the absence of light, and it is only defined by the absence of light.

There is Eru, who is all, everything, all being (no beginning, no end), all knowing,
Where he is, is existence, if only his own. Where he is not, is the Void... not a place, just nothing, non-existence, or as Tolkien say, "non-being" .
The Void is defined as where Eru is not. But Eru is everywhere, so the Void is.....nothing.

Goldilocks Gamgee actually nailed (with impeccable logic, I might add) ..
".... Is the Void a literal place, or is it the absence of a place (i.e. empty nothingness)? Because, if it's the second option, then Eru would not need to create it. If it is, then it would have to be created by Eru Illuvatar, of he would not be the God of this universe.
Yeah, I have heard of this interpretation before. The void is basically where the being of Eru doesn't reach willing. It is the same concept of hell in Christianity. god is all-present and exists everywhere but he chooses where his light reaches and can limit his light.
It is backed up by the fact that melkor was sent to the void as a punishment similar to hell.
An example someone gave me, is image a infinite white paper which is god and there is a black circle over the paper. It is not the paper but over it, like when you write on a paper. This is where god is choosing to limit his presence.

Personally, I am more of the opinion that Eru basically created the angels then the timeless halls which is the highest plane of existence then made the music cord in the timeless halls which extended down into the void.

So you're likely right... the "Void" would be a given 'first thing' because even Eru (God) has to exist 'someplace', thus, a Void is mentally constructed.
Can you elaborate what you mean by this?
 
So @Fihsouu - where this all brings us is, if we take the text itself, we have Eru, Ainur, Void, Ea.

However, if we bring alongside what Tolkien 'understood' as he wrote, as he noted in footnotes elsewhere, we have possibly:
Void, Eru, Ainur, Ea or;
Void/Eru simultaneously, Ainur, Ea.

In Tolkien's conception 'void' has to precede any act of 'creation' so it's not of/from Eru.

Flip a coin on that matter... it all depends on your consideration of the relationship and independency or interdependency between Eru and Void.

In a certain sense, if 'void' could precede Eru, then Eru too is an act of creation in some form.

And once Eru is in it, is Void really still Void?

(Herein lies a HUGE mystery. Time-space as we know it has no true 'void'.
 
Can you elaborate what you mean by this?
I can try. What I'm trying to say (based on the paragraph just before that comment) is that MOST people can't, don't or won't grapple with the concepts of "be".
They are unabile to grasp a "be" that isn't "someplace". Thus a 'void' for that 'be' to exist within. Whether simultaneously when the 'be' becomes... or before the 'be'. (But of course the 'be' is infinite in all respects including 'always', so there never was a time without the 'be' so a spacial location is irrelevant, whether it be void or otherwise.)

So to define something the finite mind can grasp, we define 'void' and we stick 'be' within 'void' totally without need to do so.

Thus Tolkien's 'void' precedes any 'creation' event, because in his concept, the 'be' must be in a 'void' - the 'void' either existent infinitely/eternally with the 'be', or the 'void' actually preceding the 'be' - which would mean the 'be' wasn't truly infinite/eternal. (But that doesn't stop some from seeing the 'be' as being within the 'void' at some point later. Because of course the 'void' is absolute nothingness, which doesn't impact the 'be'. (in other words, the shoe is on the wrong foot.))

I trust all this makes sense.

What I"m not sure of, is how @Deimos holds the relationship between 'be' and 'void'... i suspect he would hold them to be simultaneous.
 
While I agree if Tolkien said in a foot note it's outside Creation or Ea, then it would be 'first'.

That said, I tend to disagree with your first statement in this respect.
The most difficult thing for the mind to grapple with and attempt to conceive, is a god who does not even need a void.
An existence without need for any space-time construct at all.
Not even a 'void'. (As we know, even what we think of as 'void' or 'space' is filled with both matter and energy.)

If this is what you mean.... that there is virtually 'nothing' at all except Being, not even the 'nothingness' of void, then you're correct.

Tolkien does hold the Catholic conception of "God", as do many other of the 'Christian' denominations etc., - and so apply the concept to Eru...though that conception isn't quite accurate.

So you're likely right... the "Void" would be a given 'first thing' because even Eru (God) has to exist 'someplace', thus, a Void is mentally constructed. to exist even before any act of 'creation' occurs.

Sadly, it's incorrect.
Which "it" is incorrect?
 
Which "it" is incorrect?
The concept that the "be" needs to have a place - even a void - to "be" is incorrect.
In other words for me, "be" precedes "void". They do not coexist from eternity, as most 'christians'; feel they do. Void is a creation of the 'be'.

So most Christians (and Tolkien's statement that the Void 'precedes' all creation') may be correct for Eru and Tolkien's created world...but it is not correct outside of Tolkien's work.

Yet our focus here is Tolkien's work, not that which is outside it.
 
Yeah, I have heard of this interpretation before. The void is basically where the being of Eru doesn't reach willing. It is the same concept of hell in Christianity. god is all-present and exists everywhere but he chooses where his light reaches and can limit his light.
It is backed up by the fact that melkor was sent to the void as a punishment similar to hell.
Noting that the 'Void' that Melkor "was sent to" (at least as the mythology developed), was not the timeless Void outside creation, but rather the Void beyond Arda (the Solar System). Or what could be called interstellar space.
 
The concept that the "be" needs to have a place - even a void - to "be" is incorrect.
In other words for me, "be" precedes "void". They do not coexist from eternity, as most 'christians'; feel they do. Void is a creation of the 'be'.

So most Christians (and Tolkien's statement that the Void 'precedes' all creation') may be correct for Eru and Tolkien's created world...but it is not correct outside of Tolkien's work.

Yet our focus here is Tolkien's work, not that which is outside it.
Quote for me again(?) please where he says this (Was it in a letter or is it an inference made from something he wrote in the Silmarillion?)
 
If Tolkien says (in the footnote Tar-Elenion referenced) the 'Void', [is] a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ea"
If the Void is a conception... 'outside Creation or Ea'.... then in terms of its relationship to Creation (Ainur, Timelesss Halls, Ea etc.) it ipso facto means the Void 'precedes' all created things.

Just as the 'be' does.
 

If the Void is a conception... 'outside Creation or Ea'.... then in terms of its relationship to Creation (Ainur, Timelesss Halls, Ea etc.) it ipso facto means the Void 'precedes' all created things.

Just as the 'be' does.
But Tolkien said the Void was non-being, and "non-being" is nothing, i.e., no thing, a null.
"Precedence" requires two things that occur in a passage of time, such that one of the things (or events) occurs before the other.
But there aren't two things (or events). A null is not a thing, by definition.
The term Void is our limited way of trying to grasp a "null."
.
 
ut Tolkien said the Void was non-being, and "non-being" is nothing, i.e., no thing, a nul
That's why I say in Tolkien's world and head it works, and so there we have it.
It just doesn't work in reality as there is no such thing as a 'null' or a "not being" outside of the one and only 'be'.

I suppose it could be said that Eru "leads them from where they are" called "the fair regions that he had made for the Ainur..." 'back' into the 'not-being'... which is where they must have been in their being, before they were in the 'fair regions'.

Yet, perhaps for those of us unable to conceive of the reality here, he takes them INTO the 'not being'. It is indeed difficult to imagine an 'inside' to a 'not being.'

In any event, we need to define the order this way it seems: Eru/Not-Being then Ainur/Not Being then "the fair regions...." then "the timeless halls" to hold their music after they were done practicing and growing a bit... then "ea" amid the Not-Being as well, followed by the sun, moon, etc. also created probably in and around the 'globed Ea' rather than out in the 'not being'. And the 'not being' needs a special gate through which to throw the Ainur so they're out in the 'not being' again as a punishment.

This breeds many thoughts about what the 'punishment' really is, while floating around as a 'being' in the 'not being'.

Very interesting.
 
I think we are forgetting that the timeless halls is just an manifestation, it isn't real. Eru doesn't reside there, it is only manifestation of Eru as he's infinite and cannot be grasped totally.

What if the creation process only refers to things after the Ainur, maybe the void was created before the ainur but wasn't included in the creation since it is totally detached from creation.

I think the only correct answer is that it is from Eru and Eru precedes it as he won't truly be an infinite being if that isn't the case. There are multiple ways for this stance to be true:

1. Eru created the Void after creating the timeless hall and Ainur which were the first things to be created. After he created the ainur, he made them a spiritual plane of existence i.e the timeless halls which is completely detached from void and all things. After the song was created, it started to spill into the void.

2. The void is the mind of Eru and thus is a aspect of the Eru. It isn't created as it is apart of the infinity of Eru.

3. The void is the part of existence where Eru willingly limits his presence. It is similar to the concept of hell in Christianity.

4. The void is an state of primordial creation, i.e the earliest stage of creation. Basically Eru decided to create space i.e void in its truest form. Similar to the account of genesis 1-2, where God created the time and space and it was nothingness/void.

Which one do you guys think is most likely?
 
Agreement on points 1, 2, 3, and much of 4, the last sentence of 4 being slightly amiss. Pick one and go with it. :)
It's fantasy, and his texts are a bit unclear and use wording inconsistent with the footnote Tar-Elenion provided in my view...though others would disagree.
(That said, Tolkien was good with words and an exceptional philologist, but he did make mistakes in his word use from time to time, as well as keep consistency in his events and their sequences.)

I would love to have seen Silmarillion had he been the one to finish it. That said, he always intended to leave gaps and holes for others to apply themselves to. Creation certainly has come out to be one of those.

My personal view remains slightly different than all of those above still. But I'm also still mulling over all the issues at hand, and probing the texts for other clues to either clarify or confuse the issues further.

I liken this to 'do balrogs have wings'. There are those who feel the text is 'absolutely definitive' on the matter...as long as it's read consistent with their interpretation. Others however, do not.

This much is true: none of it is worth drawing swords over, though wars have been started over less.
At the end of the day I'd ask Eru, but well... he's a fictional character in a fantastical creation, so I can't reach him.
 
What does everyone think of this? I saw this somewhere.

"Ilúvatar somehow, which we cannot conceive, caused the Void to arise. In any case, this depends on what we consider the Void, for this is a word used for different things that depend on which stage of the expansion of Cosmology we are talking about.

In early mythology, Ilu (a word meaning all things) was a world limited to a sphere, which assumed the category of a universe, or even multiverse, as it contained stars, sun, moon, and cosmic water below and in the sides, and there were even higher layers above those of the celestial bodies.

However, measuredly speaking, this world was only bigger than our Earth. There wasn't then a truly vast cosmos, Arda was set amid Avakúma the night without form or time, which appears to have been in fact a literal Nothingness. Beyond it were the Timeless Halls where Eru and many Ainur who remained lived. It is uncertain whether Eru made the Void/Kúma, as the myths here are still embedded in pagan influence but Eru made the heavenly regions and Ilu.

Later, Tolkien created the concept of Eä, the Universe that is larger than Arda, which remains flat and now amid an immeasurable vastness, in general and in particular — Eä is not one space but a truly complex multidimensional cosmos with regions, ages, vast halls and spaces, and wheeling fires with innumerable stars. However, even the whole of Eä is set amid the Void, which still appears to be a concept of non-existence and thus separate from it. Tolkien seems to have exchanged a small Ilu for a large Eä amid the same Outer Night. But here there is a complicated question, for the Void beyond Arda, reminiscent of the cosmology of Ilu, cannot be the Nothing because beyond Arda is Eä or space.

Void > Eä > Arda =/= Arda < Void

The explanation he found was that Men and even Elves confused the Void of Nothing beyond Eä with the space of Eä beyond Arda, and that the small cosmos of Ilu and even the larger cosmos of Eä regarding the structure of the Kingdom of Arda was a myth in-universe; that the stars, sun, and moon were all larger and older bodies and besides the earth that was always round. Arda, therefore, was the name of the solar system.

[Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ea, with the conception of vast spaces within Ea, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System).

The Void beyond Arda is the conception of vast spaces at astronomical distances, however it may also refer more specifically to the voids of Eä which were areas with very little matter, such as that vacuum beyond Arda which was thus an enisled (isolated) realm compared to other tales. From what little we know is that they're cold and dark places, although there were spirits (that Melkor later corrupted) in them.

The voids and Void are created by Eru since they are just spaces of Eä, which Eru made. Did Eru make the Void of Not Being? This is more tricky, as the Void there implies that it does not exist, it is the absence of the Imperishable Flame that sustains the concept of existence itself. But the Outer Void there is still accessible in some way, Melkor has walked through it, so it exists in some fashion as the antithesis of existence. Hence, Eru must have created the Void not like he created the Ainur and the World, like we created ideas on a blank paper, the records, not the paper, are the things, yet we also made the paper itself.

Let us consider, however, that the idea of Eä amid the Void is middle stage of mythology, the later Cosmology, even more expanded, speaks not of One World but of a plurality of Worlds or planes of existence beyond the idea of time and space, which is characteristic of Eä in general.

Eru assumes here the supreme role of Author of a Great History that was divided into planes or individual histories of the total drama of which Eru was the author. Eä, although before said to be all that is, it is now but one history, the Timeless Halls and Ainulindalë and the Void, all that outside world, another, though the First History and possibly the second lowest or Highest Plane, described in The Silmarillion in the manner of the elements and concepts of the visible World of Eä and Arda:

(If we consider the First History, which is called the Ainulindalë: this must have come from the Aratar themselves (for the most part indeed from Manwë, it is believed). Though it was plainly put into its present form by Eldar, and was already in that form when it was recorded by Rumil, it must nonetheless have been from the first presented to us not only in the words of Quenya, but also according to our modes of thought and our imagination of the visible world, in symbols that were intelligible to us.)

Myths Transformed talks of the Great Tale or Great History being another and greater thing than Eä:

(Some say that it was out of Earth (16) itself that Ithil [Moon] was made, and thus Ambar (17) was diminished; others say that the Moon was made of like things to the Earth and of that which is Eä itself as it was made in the Tale. (18))

In short: The Void and the Timeless Halls would be elements of a history of all existence, Eru remained beyond the Tale as a whole like an author remains beyond his story and made it. So, even the Being that the Ainur saw in that reality, however unknowable it was, was only one aspect of the One inside the Tale
 

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