Did Ringwraiths Botch Murder in Bree?

[Roseberry]

Since Frodo was already wearing the Ring before he sat in the Seat, perhaps that gave him the power to see.

 

[Mellon]

I agree. IMHO, you are both correct in a sense.

The Seat of Seeing was obviously a place of great importance as it seems done up more elaborately than a simple observation post. Prior to getting on the seat, Frodo had the ring on, and was not "Seeing". We can assume that it was some combination of having the ring on and sitting on the Seat that imparted power. The power to See, and exposure to being Seen. We can conceive that Frodo also learned this.

This state of Seeing and almost getting Seen was initiated when Frodo reached the Seat with the Ring on. So it follows that he understood this combination of circumstances to be putting him in danger. Once he got the ring off, he was no longer in the "hot seat", as it were.

As far as I can tell, we have no way of knowing whether Frodo knew of this Seat, or any powers it may have imparted. From Aragon's passage, we can deduct that there were powers associated with the place. But I think that the grandeur and the location of the place were enough to make him suspect it was a special Seat. The temporal association of events were then enough to let him know he ought not sit there with the Ring on! But Frodo had felt secure with the ring on immediately prior to reaching the seat. So it is not a stretch to believe he would again try the Ring once off the seat.

Interesting that he did not See the orcs in his own backyard...

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

It WASN'T the Ringwraiths!!!

I know that I'm probably going to have a lot of people disagree with me on this because I haven't seen anyone say it yet. The Ringwraiths did NOT tear up the hobbit's rooms at "The Prancing Pony" in Bree!!! It was definitely either Bill Ferny, Harry, or some of the Southerners. Nowhere in the books is it said that the Ringswraiths did it! This really bugs me...

 

[joxy]

In all the many years I have known the books I have had no doubt it
was the wraiths who did the damage,
but you're right, Nenya, the book doesn't say who it was!!
What it does say is that Aragorn did not think the wraiths would attack,
and that he thought they would persuade Ferny etc to do their dirty work, so you have to be right about who it was.
What a pity that the dramatic breaking down of the gates and the attempted stabbings are yet more bits of PJ's over-vivid imagination!

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

I remember how long it took my brother to convince me that it wasn't the Ringwraiths... Now I swear by it and get annoyed by it. I think that is what most people have always thought. Well, it's not true!

Hmmm... I take it that you do not like PJ's movie? I certainly have many things that I do not like about it; but however, I still like the movie (if that makes any sense) a lot. A very lot.

 

[Grond]

from The Fellowship of the Ring, Strider
'What will happen?' said Merry. 'Will they attack the inn?' 'No, I
think not,' said Strider. 'They are not all here yet. And in any case that
is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not
openly attack a house where there are lights and many people -not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us. But their power is in terror, and already some in Bree are in their clutch. They will drive these wretches to some evil work: Ferny, and some of the strangers, and, maybe, the gatekeeper too. They had words with Harry at West-gate on Monday. I was watching them. He was white and shaking when they left him.'

In the chapter entitled Strider, we have Strider speculating that the Nine would not likely try something themselves.

from The Fellowship of the Ring, A Knife in the Dark
As soon as Strider had roused them all, he led the way to their
bedrooms. When they saw them they were glad that they had taken his advice: the windows had been forced open and were swinging, and the curtains were flapping; the beds were tossed about, and the bolsters slashed and flung upon the floor; the brown mat was torn to pieces.

So everyone gets a gold star for correctly answering this thread.

 

[Darth Saruman]

I feel obligated to defend PJ's decision. There just wasn't enough movie time to introduce new bad guys like Bill Ferny into the mix. Besides, to keep it an interesting movie, why use common ruffians as villains when you can have Ringwraiths?

 

[Grond]

Originally posted by Darth Saruman
I feel obligated to defend PJ's decision. There just wasn't enough movie time to introduce new bad guys like Bill Ferny into the mix. Besides, to keep it an interesting movie, why use common ruffians as villains when you can have Ringwraiths?

The answer is coming into my head.... I see it now.... kind of cloudy... Oh Yeah.... because it wasn't in the book.

 

[Darth Saruman]

Originally posted by Grond
The answer is coming into my head.... I see it now.... kind of cloudy... Oh Yeah.... because it wasn't in the book.

But what works great in a book, often doesn't work well in a movie.

 

[aragil]

We've been through this before in a rather long thread back in Feb-March. As I said there, what Aragorn said is not fact, it is his assesment of the situation. Aragorn is a great man, but not infallible. He has no idea, for instance, that the Black Riders have recently received a severe tongue-lashing from Sauron for their lack of progress on the Ring errand. This was quite simply the most important mission for all of evildom at that time in ME. The Black Riders were on the errand because they were the only ones that Sauron could trust. Why would these baddest of baddies put the task of retrieving the one ring into the hands of Ferny and co? I'm pretty sure Aragorn was wrong on this one.

 

[Niniel]

There is no reason why the Ringwraitsh would destroy the room. It must have been obvious to them that Frodo & co werent't there, and I don't think they would do something silly like that just to scare Frodo, like 'see what we could hav edoen to you'. Frodo knows already how dangerous they are, and the Wraiths have more important things to do. So the only logical explanation would be that either the Ringwraiths told Bill Ferny to do it, maybe to scare Butterbur, or that Ferny did it himself.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

In the Council of Elrond when Gandalf is telling his story he states that only two Black Riders had yet been seen in Bree as of when he arrived there, the night of the day that Strider and the hobbits left. Since the Ringwraiths are reluctant to attack when they are not all there, I can't imagine only two of them trying to do the job. Besides, I'm sure that Butterbur and the other people would have felt their presence.

 

[Dwimmerlaik]

If the Nazgul did destroy the room in an attempt to kill the hobbits.Then why would they have stopped after they discovered their mistake?I can imagine a scene not unlike Schindler's List with the Nazgul going from room to room in their search.
As this did not happen,I am confident that Aragorn's appraisal of the situation was correct,but not necessarily with his reasons why.
The Nazgul were certainly sufficiently strong even in limited numbers to find the ring in Bree and deal with it's inhabitants .Further,Aragorn could not really have known what position the Nazgul thought themselves in,desperate or otherwise.
Luckily his guess proved correct.

 

[joxy]

Originally posted by Nenya Evenstar

Hmmm... I take it that you do not like PJ's movie? I certainly have many things that I do not like about it; but however, I still like the movie (if that makes any sense) a lot. A very lot.

I don't "not like the film"!
There's much of it I like a lot, as you do-
but the bad bits are so bad they get near to ruining the rest!
Broken carrot, she-elf, hobbit sword practice, body down the well- ugh!

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

Sorry to have made a generalization. I'm glad you like the movie. I actually practically adore it - I just enjoy discussing parts of it that don't fit with the book to try to figure out why and see if it is better the way it was made.

 

[Galadhwen]

What's wrong with the broken carrot and the hobbit sword practice? Do you think the Hobbits would have gone a fighting orcs completely ignorent as to how to use their swords? Besides it breaks the film up a bit. Also a Dwarf skeleton would cause more noise than a stone and so alert the orcs. Am normally a Tolkien purist but for the film you can't completely follow the book tis impossible.

 

[joxy]

Originally posted by Galadhwen
What's wrong with the broken carrot and the hobbit sword practice? Do you think the Hobbits would have gone a fighting orcs completely ignorent as to how to use their swords? Besides it breaks the film up a bit. Also a Dwarf skeleton would cause more noise than a stone and so alert the orcs. Am normally a Tolkien purist but for the film you can't completely follow the book tis impossible.

The broken carrot is silly, childish, and nothing to do with the story or the actual characters of the hobbits.
Of course they wouldn't go ignorant of using swords, or of lots of other things, but there was no need at all to add a completely invented scene to prove any of them.
If the film needed breaking up, though I don't know what you mean, there are plenty of scenes from the book that have been omitted (quite reasonably) that could have been put back in place of the practice.
If Tolkien was satisfied that a "plunk" was enough to raise the alert there was no reason at all to change it to a series of loud crashes.
I agree it is impossible to follow ALL the book, but I don't see any problem in following it in these three points.

 

[Talimon]

Originally posted by joxy


The broken carrot is silly, childish, and nothing to do with the story or the actual characters of the hobbits.
Of course they wouldn't go ignorant of using swords, or of lots of other things, but there was no need at all to add a completely invented scene to prove any of them.
If the film needed breaking up, though I don't know what you mean, there are plenty of scenes from the book that have been omitted (quite reasonably) that could have been put back in place of the practice.
If Tolkien was satisfied that a "plunk" was enough to raise the alert there was no reason at all to change it to a series of loud crashes.
I agree it is impossible to follow ALL the book, but I don't see any problem in following it in these three points.

The scene between the hobbits and Boromir is one of the better scenes in the movie. It shows Merry and Pippins love of Boromir, which comes full circle when they stand in front of him as he is dying.

 

[Galadhwen]

Thank you Talimon. What I meant by breaking up the film was just a lighthearted moment showing more of who the charachters were and how they got on with others, not just what they did. I agree this could have been gained through the books but I didn't write their script! So what do you think of the whole Gimli beard saving manouver, or the fact that they had Merry and Pippin stealing the crops?

 

[seadragon]

That Film

i was thinking today of the film and why it differs from the book.
it has to tell the story to those who have not read the books. so the scenes have to explain the story to a wider audience.
the care that went into the creation of the film has to be congratulated.
let's not nit pick over discrepancies and variations in the narrative.
enjoy what i consider to be a classic film that stands on its own without the book.
enjoy what i consider to be a book that is a work of genius!