Did Ringwraiths Botch Murder in Bree?

[Galadhwen]

That's what I thought, just wanted to check, cheers Grond!
LOL

 

[aragil]

Just out of curiousity, what is the rationale the Nazgul use for not attacking the inn themselves? As Grond is posting from UT, he can tell us the bit where the Nine get the message from Sauron- he's not happy with their progress in the Ring hunt. Given this directive from their boss, why would the Nazgul use human proxies to search out the ring? Would the Nine consider Ferny to be somehow superior to them in his ability to secure the ring? Or did they simply detest the thought of getting Hobbit blood on their gorgeous black robes? I had no idea the Nazgul were so humble and squeemish!

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

The only answer I can give to that is the refer you to the Fellowship of the Ring:

"No, I think not," said Strider. "They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people-not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us.

 

[aragil]

But this is Aragorn's theory, and as I stated back on page one I think Aragorn is perfectly capable of making a mistake (unless he is in fact Eru). Minas Tirith did not have to fall, there was no need to eliminate Rohan, no need to fight at all in Lorien, Mirkwood, or Erebor- not if Sauron regained the One Ring. This was quite simply the most important task for all of evildom, and 'The Quest for the Ring' in UT makes it very clear that Sauron had given this task to the Nazgul. Now, given all that, why would the Nazgul turn around and put Ferny in charge? I just don't buy the "they won't attack a house with many lights and people" tack- these are the chief servants of Sauron, and they didn't hesitate to attack Minas Tirith, where there were even more lights and people then there were at the Pony. Also remember, the nine hadn't been seen abroad in Erebor in a long while, and Strider had only very recently gotten news of them from Gildor. As I said before, even Aragorn was capable of making mistakes.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

Well, my resources are out! And since I have not read UT I cannot say anything about that.... The only thing I can think of is that perhaps the Ringwraiths did not attack because they new they had "all the long leagues of Eriador" before them in which they could pursue Frodo with ease. After all, they were not expecting Aragorn to join with the hobbits, so they would have naturally thought that they would have easy prey. If Aragorn had not been with the hobbits then the hobbits would have been stopped by the Ringwraiths very quickly.

 

[DGoeij]

At Minas Tirith I cannot remember the Nazgul as being part of the troops that actually storm the walls, or even engage in any open battle. They pursue fleeing troops, drive their own forces forward, all that using fear as their weapon. Only when the first ring is deserted and the gate broken, the chief Nazgul rides into the city. Then, before he attacks Gandalf, the Rohirrim appear and the besieged gain new hope, he retreats. When Theoden is attacked, that too happens when there is a pause in the battle, and Theoden stands alone. Even then the Nazgul does not dismount to kill Theoden, not until his beast is slain.
From Gandalf we know the Nazgul prefer to act when all nine are present. That's why he draws off four of them at Amon Sul, so only five remain for an attack. Even then, they are scared away by Frodo's elvish and Aragorn's torches, and the fact that they have wounded the Ringbearer. Even when the group is alone, in the dark and far away from any help they do not press their assault. It seems they thrive on fear in the hearts of their enemies, but when the fear is gone, they are almost worthless.
All this combined, I think Aragorn's assesment is right. The Ringwraights wouldn't attack a lighted and closed inn. They hardly use any force, just fear, and strike swift. Trashing the place up just doesn't fit in that picture also. What does fit in the picture are the gatekeeper, Ferny and the Southroner (and maybe some more), sneaking into the inn, stabbing the pillows and then trashing the place out of frustration. And in the proces they steal the horses and ponies present, to gain something for themselves.

But still, it's just my two cents.

 

[Leto]

I think, overall, the ringwraiths aren't as 'powerful' as everyone gives them credit for. They are definately the most fearsome, that is their great power...their presence creates a shadow of terror over all living things. But their physical power apparently isn't so great, especially when they are not all together, and are far from the direct sight and will of their master. He sent them because they are his most trusted...they have no will but to do his bidding...no others could be trusted with such a mission. They cannot 'see' in the light, in the living world...the same way it describes Frodo and Sam's vision blurred and dulled when they wear the ring. They can sense the ring when it is being used, but apparently not when it is not being used. Even Sauron can't see it or sense it when it is not being used, especially when his will is bent on controlling other things...(his armies, and the palantir). The Witch King must certainly have been the most powerful. He was the one who stabbed Frodo, he was the one to lead the others into the ford, he was the one who led the armies. The others stayed high above the battle on their flying mounts, spreading their fear. Apparently their power is not in physical combat (or else the assault on Gondor and the battle of the Morannon might have been much more terrible).
We assume Aragorn knows a thing or two about these things, as we learn later on in the story, he has been around for quite some time. His guess that the ringwraiths would not openly attack the inn was probably right.
We give the nazgul too much credit, basing our opinion of them on movies, rather then their behavior in the book. In the book, we only see one of them ever taking any sort of 'action', that's the Witch King. The others follow, and spread their fear. And so far away from his master, with orders to stay 'undecover', the Witch King definately would have hesitated to reveal himself until his victim was alone in the night (on weathertop). Sauron didn't really want to let his enemies know what he was doing...but the mission was so important he had to sacrifice some secrecy to speed and trustworthiness. Still, the Nazgul were trying to stay as covert as possible. They only threw it all to the wind, at the last, when the ring was about to pass beyond their reach, over the ford.

 

[aragil]

Originally posted by Leto
He sent them because they are his most trusted...they have no will but to do his bidding...no others could be trusted with such a mission.

Thank you Leto. I take it that 'no others' can be extended to Ferny. I'm still not sure what everybody is saying here. Do people think that the attack on the inn was intended to fail, or that it was carried out by Ferny et al without the instigation of the Ringwraiths. My argument is that there is no way the Ringwraiths would have asked Ferny to go in to get the Ring. Why? Because as Leto just stressed for me, their master couldn't trust anyone else with the task, and they were slaves to his will, erego they wouldn't trust the task to anyone else, either. If the Wraiths were relying on all the wide leagues of Eriador, then why have the Inn attacked at all? Why bother to put your trust in men which you hardly know, such as Ferny? As was once pointed out in an alternate reality, this was not an open assault on the Inn- nobody saw the attackers. I see absolutely no evidence outside Aragorn's considerable opinion that the Nazgul wouldn't have snuck into the Inn to kill a few Hobbits in order to secure their master's Ring. This is not to be compared with a frontal assault on Minas Tirith (although Dgoeij, I know you know that it was the Witch King himself that lead the assault on the gates- the thickest fighting in the whole battle). This is much more similar to the sneak attack on the house at Crickhallow, which occurs only a few pages before the attack at the Pony, and was demonstrably carried out by Ringwraiths (less than nine and without their leader). The ones at Crickhallow weren't even all that fussy about killing a couple Hobbits, as we're told that they ride down the Hobbit guards at the gates. Besides this, there is the corroborating evidence that I believe others have posted on this thread- Frodo wakes up in the night after feeling a presence, and in the morning Barliman complains about how uneasy the animals have all been. If this isn't the calling card of the Nazgul, then I guess as Leto says, I've been paying too much attention to some movie, and not enough to the books.

 

[Aslan]

In all the times I've read the book, I have pictured the wraiths, and no one else, as the ones who tore up the room. This could be one of those parts where JRRT wanted some imagining to go on.

 

[DGoeij]

Originally posted by aragil
Thank you Leto. I take it that 'no others' can be extended to Ferny. I'm still not sure what everybody is saying here. Do people think that the attack on the inn was intended to fail, or that it was carried out by Ferny et al without the instigation of the Ringwraiths. My argument is that there is no way the Ringwraiths would have asked Ferny to go in to get the Ring. (...)
This is not to be compared with a frontal assault on Minas Tirith (although Dgoeij, I know you know that it was the Witch King himself that lead the assault on the gates- the thickest fighting in the whole battle). This is much more similar to the sneak attack on the house at Crickhallow, which occurs only a few pages before the attack at the Pony, and was demonstrably carried out by Ringwraiths (less than nine and without their leader). (..)

I wonder if the Wraights ever asked Ferny to get the Ring. You are completely right that that information was too 'classified'. Maybe what the nazgul really wanted was the ponies and horses to be gone. Without them, the miles to Eriador would be even more longer. I wonder if Ferny and his goons were a little too enthousiastic, and raided the bedroom too. They must have figured the travellers were of some importance to the Dark Lord.
The raid at Crickhollow (which is very clearly carried out by the Nazgul, I agree on that) is very different from the Prancing Pony IMHO. It was a small house, standing alone, with one scared Hobbit inside. And the Wraigths immediately fled when the alarm was sounded, the guards they killed on their way out.
I am aware that the chief Nazgul was there at the Siege of Minas Tirith. Behind his troops, driving them forward, until Grond was brought before the gate and the defenders driven off. And when the sky cleared up and the Rohirrim showed up, he retreated. Fear is their weapon, and apparently Hope the antidode.

 

[Grond]

Just a little side note.... from the description given in UT.... I think that the Southerner would have done any bidding the Nagul instructed him to do. Had they told him to retrieve a Ring from a Hobbit, he would have gone fortwith and tried to follow their instructions.

from Unfinished Tales, The Hunt for the Ring
He put therefore the Shadow of Fear on the Dunlending, and sent turn on to Bree as an agent. He was the squint-eyed southerner at the Inn.

 

[aragil]

... and speaking of bringing forward Grond ...

Come on Grond, you're being selective. Where's the quote about the tongue-lashing the Ringwraiths got because Sauron was upset with their progress?
Dgoeij- if the argument is that Bill et al were acting on thier own initiative, then that is very hard to argue against, although it is not exactly the theory of Strider. As far as Crickhollow vs. Pony, I'd say the one case was 3 Nazgul vs. 1 Hobbit, while the other could have been 6 Nazgul (inluding the Witch King) vs. 4 Hobbits. Remember, the windows were forced, meaning that whoever attacked did not openly attack the Inn, but rather did a sneak attack where they thought they would only encounter a few (scared) Hobbits. In fact, while I'm asking Grond to quote things from the 'Hunt for the Ring' out of UT, perhaps he could print the bit where the Nazgul overcome the Dunedain guard at the South Farthing. Numbers are sketchy, but their are enough Dunedain to run in several different directions, along with those who are actually slain. I think it's fairly safe to assume that whatever resistance these Dunedain put up, it was greater than what could be expected from the four hobbits at the Pony (at least the Wraiths probably would have assumed so). Also, Aragorn never got wind of the Nazgul attacking his men (as far as I can tell)- perhaps he would have changed his mind about the likelihood of the Nazgul attacking the Inn if he had been privy to this little gem.

So here's my evidence that it could have been the Nazgul:

1) Attack is not an open assault on the inn, but rather a selected secret assault on a single room, through the windows.
2) Frodo wakes up in the night, after feeling a 'presence'
3) In the morning Barliman says that guests were unable to sleep in their beds
4) Tolkien himself says that the missing horses were later found, and it seemed that they had only been driven off a short distance or else had fled in terror
5) The Nazgul had already openly attacked several (>4) Dunedain guarding the Shire
6) Some of the Nazgul thought that the Ring was in the house in Crickhollow, and rather than sending someone else in to get it, they went themselves.
7) Abe Lincoln oncce said that one Hobbit in a room in the Pony is worth four Hobbits somewhere in the long leagues of Eriador
8) The Nazgul had been recently given a withering message by Sauron, one so intimidating that even the Witch King was afraid. Given this directive, the Nazgul were unlikely to rely on anyone else to come near the Ring, no matter how trustworthy they thought the individual.

I'll just point out that #s 2,3,4 practically scream Nazgul, and that #s 5,6,7 were vital information of which Aragorn was unaware. Even still, his assessment is qualified:

"No, I think not," said Strider. "They are not all here yet. And in any case that is not their way. In dark and loneliness they are strongest; they will not openly attack a house where there are lights and many people-not until they are desperate, not while all the long leagues of Eriador still lie before us.

Aragorn freely admits that his assessment is just his opinion, therefore subject to being wrong. Also, he has no idea how desperate the Nazgul are at this point.

 

[Parrot]

posted by Aragil
7) Abe Lincoln oncce said that one Hobbit in a room in the Pony is worth four Hobbits somewhere in the long leagues of Eriador

- Good to see you back!

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

I would like just to point out that perhaps the mysterious "presence" which caused fear for so many of the people in the inn and woke Frodo up out of his sleep does not necessarily mean that the Wraiths were attacking the room. I have no doubt that they were there in the near vicinity during the attack on the inn. So perhaps they were there driving their little friends to the dirty work but not taking part in it except for their presence. This would support Aragorn's assumption as well.

The main problem that I have with it being the Ringwraiths is the fact that Aragorn's quote is the only evidence that we are ever given as to who it was that actually attacked the inn. Did Tolkien just put it in there for the heck of it? Or did he put it in there to directly give his audience some reason to believe that it was the Southerner and his friends?

 

[aragil]

Whoo-hoo! All 3 Montanans posting in a row! However, as sr. member of the forum I'm going to have to ask Nenya to tow the party line on this one- it was the Wraiths.
There's two ways to go about answering your question Nenya- one way is with evidence in the story, the other is for looking at how the story is written. If we stay in the story, then there is no recourse to such things as 'why would JRRT have had Aragorn say that'. If this is how we examine the problem, then we must simply regard Aragorn as (a very knowledgeable) source, which may or may not be supplying good information.
If we take the alternate tac, and ask why JRRT wrote it that way, then we enter very muddy waters. When JRRT first wrote this part of the story, both Ferny and Strider (Trotter) were Hobbits, I don't think the Southerner existed (can't remember), and JRRT himself had no clear idea who the black riders were. The black riders themselves were not always intended to be the ringwraiths- Frodo's (Bingo's) first encounter with them back in the Shire was originally written as an encounter with Gandalf, complete with the sniffing! That JRRT could have originally intended Strider to be correct, and then later changed his mind as he fleshed out who exactly the Nazgul were is not out of the realm of possibility. The answer is: we'll never know. Of that, at least, I'm pretty sure.

originally posted by Parrot
- Good to see you back!

Don't get too used to it- I have to leave again on Friday (pouty face).

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

Go Montanans!!!!! Alright, so maybe I don't have enough information to back up that it wasn't the Ringwraiths... but then neither do you have enough proof to back up that it wasn't the Breelanders and the Southron. So, I will just have to agree with your statement that we will never know. Thank you very much for all your insight and input, Aragil, senior member from Montana! I learned a lot from it, and thank you for contributing.

 

[aragil]

My pleasure. And I should say that I don't think that it's definite either way- but I definitely do think there was a possibility it was the Ringwraiths, in spite of what Aragorn says. Evidence on both sides, so to speak. In other threads I've argued hard about the abilities of the Ringwraiths and how combat was not necessarily their forte, using much the same language as my fellow Periaur Dgoeij did here. I just think that in this case the Nazgul would have been a bit more driven to get the Ring themselves.

 

[Nenya Evenstar]

And I should say that you have convinced me that it could have been the Ringwraiths. And that is a feat after how adamant I was a little while ago that it couldn't have been them. So, the final verdict: It could have been either the Ringwraiths or some wretches driven by them to do some evil work who broke into the Prancing Pony.

 

[aragil]

I'll drink to that. Parrot can bring the Moose Drool.

 

[DGoeij]

Re: ... and speaking of bringing forward Grond ...

Originally posted by aragil
So here's my evidence that it could have been the Nazgul:

1) Attack is not an open assault on the inn, but rather a selected secret assault on a single room, through the windows.
2) Frodo wakes up in the night, after feeling a 'presence'
3) In the morning Barliman says that guests were unable to sleep in their beds
4) Tolkien himself says that the missing horses were later found, and it seemed that they had only been driven off a short distance or else had fled in terror
5) The Nazgul had already openly attacked several (>4) Dunedain guarding the Shire
6) Some of the Nazgul thought that the Ring was in the house in Crickhollow, and rather than sending someone else in to get it, they went themselves.
7) Abe Lincoln oncce said that one Hobbit in a room in the Pony is worth four Hobbits somewhere in the long leagues of Eriador
8) The Nazgul had been recently given a withering message by Sauron, one so intimidating that even the Witch King was afraid. Given this directive, the Nazgul were unlikely to rely on anyone else to come near the Ring, no matter how trustworthy they thought the individual.

Your reasoning is sound, and I agree that it could have been the Nazgul. My reasoning about Ferny and Co was simply speculation. I should be reading the these parts in the UT you mention, because I own the darn thing myself. Its exact location is causing me some trouble at the moment.
If the Nazgul were indeed so eager/motivated/driven, and were capable of driving off a number of Rangers, I wonder why they didn't raid the entire inn while they were at it? Again speculation, I agree they relied more on terror than on combat. I somehow feel that it wasn't Nazgul-style to trash the bedroom and I really like going over all available information in cases like this.
I don't get the one about Lincoln, but I would like to.