Differences between Arnor and Gondor

[wondering]

On further thought regarding the possibly always fairly thinly populated nature of Arnor, at least concerning non-Dunedain: Appendix A says about Earnur's northern expedition: "So great in draught and so many were his ships that they could scarcely find harbourage, though both the Harlond and the Forlond also were filled; and from them descended an army of power, with munition and provision for a war of great kings. Or so it seemed to the people of the North, though this was but a small sending-force of the whole might of Gondor."

While Gondor at this point was much larger and more powerful than it was at the time of the War of the Ring, it was already well past its peak (post Kin-strife, post Great Plague). If "a small sending-force" of post Plague Gondor was really huge by their standards, that might suggest that the Arthedain vs Angmar war was fought by pretty small armies on both sides - maybe more like Migration Period warbands than full-on armies. The Dunedain were well diminished by this point, but the non-Dunedain humans wouldn't have been touched by that. But if they were never numerous to start with...

(The fact that the very good farmland of the Shire was abandoned or mostly abandoned by 1601 TA, so that it could be granted to the Hobbits, also leans in that direction. Possibly since Angmar was northeast of Arthedain, the Kings of Arthedain had to move their apparently limited population eastward to maintain the lines against Angmar - and possibly Rhudaur - leaving western areas like the Shire fallow?)

 

[Vardarianna]

I just found the thread and it has too many posts to look through it so apologies if I said something that has been said before.

Arnor was founded by Elenedil, his ships landed in the north of Middle Earth and he was helped by Gil-Galad. the capital was Annuminas

Gondor was founded by Isildur and Anarion, who co-rule it. Isildur was in Minas Ithil (later Minas Morgul) and Anarion in Minas Anor (later Minas Tirith), but they weren't king, Elendil was the king of both kingdoms and they ruled in his name.

When Elendil and Anarion were killed, Isildur became king of both kingdoms, but he didn't want to stay in Gondor, so close to were his father and brother died, so he trusted Gondor to one of Anarion's sons, Meneldil and he went north with the purpose of taken his throne in Arnor, but he was killed by orcs in the Gladden Fields along with his 3 eldest sons (Elendur, Aratan and Ciryon). His youngest son, Valandil was too young to be in the war and had stayed in Rivendell. It was a while until he could assume the throne.

After the death of Earendur, his children fought among themselves and Arnor was split in 3 kingdoms: Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur. Rhudaur soon felt under the influence of Angmar and during the rule of Argeleb I the wars against Angmar started, they progressively weakened the kingdom and the last king, Arvedui was defeated, the help from Gondor came too late and Arvedui drown when the ship sent by Cirdan to rescue him sunk.

then there was not kingdom and Arvedui's descendants became simply chieftains, from Aranarth, the first to Aragorn, the last.

Gondor on the other hand didn't have such internal problems until much later (the kin strife), was ruled mostly by capable kings at the beginning, and while it had its share of enemies, they weren't as bad as Angmar.

Yet, although it survived, it was just a shadow of what it was before, the kin strife, a plague and the continuous wars (especially against the wainriders) weakened it, the last king, Earner disappeared when he accepted a challenge by the witch king and the stewards governed Gondor ever since, until Aragorn, they were forced to make alliances to defend Gondor (e.g. the Rohirim).

Thanks for your take on the 'Differences Between Arnor and Gondor'.
I do recommend reading back through the posts in this thread as most of them are pretty good.

---

On further thought regarding the possibly always fairly thinly populated nature of Arnor, at least concerning non-Dunedain: Appendix A says about Earnur's northern expedition: "So great in draught and so many were his ships that they could scarcely find harbourage, though both the Harlond and the Forlond also were filled; and from them descended an army of power, with munition and provision for a war of great kings. Or so it seemed to the people of the North, though this was but a small sending-force of the whole might of Gondor."

While Gondor at this point was much larger and more powerful than it was at the time of the War of the Ring, it was already well past its peak (post Kin-strife, post Great Plague). If "a small sending-force" of post Plague Gondor was really huge by their standards, that might suggest that the Arthedain vs Angmar war was fought by pretty small armies on both sides - maybe more like Migration Period warbands than full-on armies. The Dunedain were well diminished by this point, but the non-Dunedain humans wouldn't have been touched by that. But if they were never numerous to start with...

(The fact that the very good farmland of the Shire was abandoned or mostly abandoned by 1601 TA, so that it could be granted to the Hobbits, also leans in that direction. Possibly since Angmar was northeast of Arthedain, the Kings of Arthedain had to move their apparently limited population eastward to maintain the lines against Angmar - and possibly Rhudaur - leaving western areas like the Shire fallow?)

I've always had it in my mind that this disparity of population between the two kingdoms was always fairly great even if Elendil had four ships with him when they flled Numenor, and his sons Isildur and Anarion had five ships. Consiidering what they took with them (palantiri, Stone of Erech) I wouldn't think the difference of the numbers of the faithful would have been that much greater with only one more ship. So that leaves the local population, be they 'middle men, or Numenorean colonists that came to Middle-earth through the 2nd age. I also put weight to the whole intermingling issue, where Gondor began to intermingle with the Rhovanions beginning with the alliance between the two when they fought the Easterlings circa 1244 III. This, though it 'diluted' Numenorean bloodlines as feared, it also added numbers quicker than Arnor who tended to keep to their Numenorean ancestry.

I guess another topic would be a population one...

• How many Numenoreans were in the northwest of Middle-earth (Pelargir northward and west of the Anduin) at the time of the downfall?
• How many Numenorean faithful were on each of the nine ships that Elendil, Isildur, and Anorian had when they fled Numenor. A sub-question to this is 'How big were these nine Numenorean ships?
• What were the birthrates of the Middle-earth Numenoreans from the time of the downfall of Numenor to say, 1300 III?

I could go on with questions. I find this whole issue fascinating!