Does Bombadil secretly hate hobbits?

[TrackerOrc]

So we know that Bombadil somehow knew that the hobbits were 'wandering' and that 'all paths lead to Withwindle. Old grey Willow-man, he's a mighty singer; and it's hard for little folk to escape his cunning mazes' (In the House of Tom Bombadil). So obviously Tom will be waiting for them by Old Man Willow.
Except he decides to go and pick some flowers for Goldberry. Ok, bit lackadaisical, but he is an odd bod so we'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

Then, instead of escorting them to the 'border' of his own little kingdom (or even to Bree itself), he lets them ride off, knowing full well how close their path will take them to the Barrow-downs and their nasty inhabitants.
He gives them a rhyme to sing, if they should 'by ill-luck fall into any danger or difficulty the next day'.
Ill-luck? It's almost guaranteed that they will end up as Barrow-wight fodder - either he's been quaffing way too much hooch with Maggot, or there's something much darker going on here.

 

[Starbrow]

I don't think it's fair to expect Bombadil to hang out by Old Man Willow for days on the off chance some hobbits will come by. It's not like they had an appointment set up.

I also don't think Bombadil should be expected to drop everything to escort the hobbits to his borders, Bree, or even beyond. As was implied at the Council of Elrond, Bombadil didn't worry too much about the Ring.

 

[TrackerOrc]

I don't think it's fair to expect Bombadil to hang out by Old Man Willow for days on the off chance some hobbits will come by. It's not like they had an appointment set up.

I also don't think Bombadil should be expected to drop everything to escort the hobbits to his borders, Bree, or even beyond. As was implied at the Council of Elrond, Bombadil didn't worry too much about the Ring.

Well it's not like Bombadil has a full calendar to take note of is it? He basically does three quarters of nothing most days, so it would hardly make a dent in his valuable down time!

 

[Eldacar]

I think he is neither familiar with the concept of a calendar in a sense of organizing some kind of appointments and tasks, nor down time. To me, it seems, that the whole problem arises only as you try to map the logic of modern work life onto some magical being in a fantasy universe written by an author who famously wasn't a fan of this kind of life. I don't think there can be made any meaningful interpretation if working with an assumption that is shaky at best.

 

[TrackerOrc]

I think he is neither familiar with the concept of a calendar in a sense of organizing some kind of appointments and tasks, nor down time. To me, it seems, that the whole problem arises only as you try to map the logic of modern work life onto some magical being in a fantasy universe written by an author who famously wasn't a fan of this kind of life. I don't think there can be made any meaningful interpretation if working with an assumption that is shaky at best.

Ah, I was probably being a lot more generalised than anything else. His 'calendar' is basically empty and he really has nothing else but down time is what I was getting at.
Which still, to me, leaves the fact that he's awfully lax with things concerning the hobbits' safety, given he knows all about Old Man Willow and the Barrow wights.

 

[Eldacar]

And to him these creatures are but a nuisance, since he isn't concerned with worldly perils at all. The point you are trying to discuss is if withholding information of obviously dangerous situations ahead could be some sign of Bombadil being malicious, but he just doesn't think about it the same way everybody else does. It is not really some sort of withholding if he honestly doesn't concern himself with these dangers. To him they barely exist.

It sometimes seems oblivious how Tom is living, but as it is stated by Elrond, Gandalf and a lot of other notable figures: he is of completely different nature.

 

[Ent]

I personally think Bombadil is far wiser than much of the above commentary gives credit to.
Bombadil had a role to play in their EDUCATION and GROWTH. And he was wise enough to know that role.

We do not strengthen people by 'doing everything for them.' We strengthen them by providing them the tools in their own toolkit to deal with what they meet.

They were not strong enough to avoid becoming 'fodder' as one said. But they were strong enough to avail themselves of the tools for safety provided.

In addition, had they not ended up where they ended up, they would not have acquired the barrow-blades. And am I not mistaken, one of those was the demise of the Witch-king?

The whole sequence is another of Tolkien's demonstrations of Providence. His incorporation of 'religious and moral principles' into his work, but not as 'overt Christianity.'

It's easy to 'blame bombadil' for not 'doing it all for them.' it's much harder to see his provision was exactly what they needed for their own best interests (and that of the free peoples) in the longer run.

 

[Eldacar]

Tom most certainly is wise, but I always understood it as a different kind when compared to the wisdom of, for example, Gandalf.

"He might do so, if all the free folk of the world begged him, but he would not understand the need. And if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it, or most likely throw it away. Such things have no hold on his mind. He would be a most unsafe guardian; and that alone is answer enough.
[...]
‘I know little of Iarwain save the name,’ said Galdor; ‘but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself." (Fellowship of the Ring, Concil of Elrond)

To me, this never looked like he would make a conscious decision to educate the Hobbits or help them grow (as a person?). He is doing things as they seem fit to him. Wisdom that is more some kind of gut feeling derived from ages of experience and a close connection to the creation of the world itself, than being a conscious decision made by someone we would call rational and responsible. This wisdom still most certainly aligns with what you called overt Christianity, but the way, in which he arrived at his conclusions is, in my eyes, not as straight forward as you make it out to be. He probably wouldn't even notice he made a decision or came to a conclusion at all. He simply does.

Is that what you meant, or do you interpret his wisdom differently, more consciously?

 

[Ent]

Is that what you meant, or do you interpret his wisdom differently, more consciously?

First, your interpretation above is certainly one way to look at it.

But I wonder if his 'lack of concern' or "not understanding of the need" comes from a total self-absorption (or lack of 'other-awareness') or a complete, well-founded faith.

My own interpretation is he's so much "one with Eru" and has such confidence in Eru's plan and control of all things, he's simply happy to play his part (which he knows well) and let Eru care for the rest. In this, he's very similar to hobbits, living a simplistic life, caring for the immediate needs, and not much bothering with 'the greater things of the world.'

Recall - once he's given the hobbits the tool to use to escape immediate danger, he does escort them the rest of the way to the border of his particular 'kingdom' - or let's call it his 'sphere of influence'. Why? Because though he was aware of the immediate danger and could arm them against it (the wights) he was likely not so sure what might happen to them from the Downs to the border of his sphere of influence.

Tolkien wraps a great deal of faith and providence into this whole scene.

if Bombadil really 'hated' hobbits, or something else were going on, he would not have provided them (particularly Frodo, the one growing the most from the whole scenario), the tool to call for help, nor would he have taken them from there to the border of his sphere of influence. He would have just simply 'left them to fate, and a most sure death.'

Here's the deal... "why didn't he just take them to the border of his sphere of influence from the beginning" ?? Because the opportunity to grow through the encounter, and gain the blades, would have been lost.

Did Bombadil necessarily know EXACTLY how things were going to fall out? No.
But his faith "informed" him, giving him the providential tool for what was needed in the moment - as it advised him what to do after the immediate danger was passed.

It's how faith and providence work. A careful reading of his 'just happening along' in the desperate hour of need with Old Man Willow will reveal the same thing - both faith and providence at work.

Bombadil is ABLE to be completely carefree because of his absolute belief. He is, essentally, "one" with all Eru created. Even Gandalf does not exhibit a faith so complete and powerful as does Bombadil. Thus, we see Gandalf frequently 'worried' and 'fretting' and 'unsure.' Bombadil has no such failings.

Yet as noted, 'power is not in him to defy the Enemy, unless such power is in the earth itself.'
(This phrase 'in the earth itself' is telling, by the way.)

Yet we know Melkor has corrupted even the earth itself, from Tolkien's writings, in his efforts to control. (It actually became his version of the "One Ring".

I don't think Bombadil is running around "consciously" being wise and making intentionally "wise" decisions... those are for people like Gandalf who have limitations.

Bombadil is a bit beyond that in his absolute faith Eru is in control and his plan will unfold as it should.

(We are granted privy to several other instances where Gandalf's faith wavers for example - but that's another story for another time.)

 

[Ent]

o you interpret...wisdom

As an additive:
In the Greek, the term I believe explains things, is "eis". It is translated "in" most often, but this is short of the full picture.

"eis" in its fullness means "in the REALM and SPHERE OF INFLUENCE of...."

For example, if I may - the scripture which in part reads "you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit"

This is best translated "you are not in the realm (dominion) and sphere of influence of the flesh, but are in the realm (dominion) and sphere of influence of the Spirit."

This is where Bombadil lives... and "in" (the realm/dominion and sphere of influence) of the area he rules in Middle-earth, exercising his faith Eru is, and is in control, he simply lives out each individual moment to its fullest in love and harmony with all creation.

it's for this reason he knows precisely what to do with each moment, like gather flowers and be wherever he happens to be for whatever reason he happens to be there, at whatever time it may be, without needing to consciously think about it, or 'figure out' (think Gandalf) what the best course of action might be.

True and full faith 'sets us free.'

 

[Ent]

Many argue over "who or what Bombadil is, or represents." It seems to be a difficult issue.

But to me, Bombadil is simple. He is the embodiment of Faith. In this case, faith in Eru.

So why doesn't the embodiment of "Faith" have 'power to withstand the enemy" ?? The referant is 'in this world.'
My answer is simple. Oh, but it does. its end is secure, whatever may happen to it 'in this world.'
Bombadil is quite secure, even should the enemy ultimately 'win' over him and destroy his existence 'in this (now marred) world.'

'Tis why all in Middle-earth who are of faith look forward to the "song being sung aright' and the world being remade.

(Sorry I keep rambling on. it's just that this is such an iimperative theme in Tolkien's work.)

 

[TrackerOrc]

I personally think Bombadil is far wiser than much of the above commentary gives credit to.
Bombadil had a role to play in their EDUCATION and GROWTH. And he was wise enough to know that role.

We do not strengthen people by 'doing everything for them.' We strengthen them by providing them the tools in their own toolkit to deal with what they meet.

They were not strong enough to avoid becoming 'fodder' as one said. But they were strong enough to avail themselves of the tools for safety provided.

In addition, had they not ended up where they ended up, they would not have acquired the barrow-blades. And am I not mistaken, one of those was the demise of the Witch-king?

The whole sequence is another of Tolkien's demonstrations of Providence. His incorporation of 'religious and moral principles' into his work, but not as 'overt Christianity.'

It's easy to 'blame bombadil' for not 'doing it all for them.' it's much harder to see his provision was exactly what they needed for their own best interests (and that of the free peoples) in the longer run.

There's a couple of things here I'm not understanding.

I can't see anything in the text to show that Bombadil was interrested in the education or growth of the hobbits at all, so I'm at a bit of a loss here.

I also don't see where he actually does educate them here - both in the Old Forest and at the Barrows they are completely helpless and only saved by his direct intervention; they already knew about the dangers of the Forest and had even heard rumours of the Barrow wights, so I don't know what lesson is being taught here?

And I'm sure Bombadil hasn't been so pressed for time that he couldn't have sauntered over to the Barrows in the last millenium or three and picked out a selection of weaponry to keep handy for any visitors!

 

[TrackerOrc]

As an additive:
In the Greek, the term I believe explains things, is "eis". It is translated "in" most often, but this is short of the full picture.

"eis" in its fullness means "in the REALM and SPHERE OF INFLUENCE of...."

For example, if I may - the scripture which in part reads "you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit"

This is best translated "you are not in the realm (dominion) and sphere of influence of the flesh, but are in the realm (dominion) and sphere of influence of the Spirit."

This is where Bombadil lives... and "in" (the realm/dominion and sphere of influence) of the area he rules in Middle-earth, exercising his faith Eru is, and is in control, he simply lives out each individual moment to its fullest in love and harmony with all creation.

it's for this reason he knows precisely what to do with each moment, like gather flowers and be wherever he happens to be for whatever reason he happens to be there, at whatever time it may be, without needing to consciously think about it, or 'figure out' (think Gandalf) what the best course of action might be.

True and full faith 'sets us free.'

Not being religious myself, I've never read Tolkien from the view of Faith or Providence, just essentially what is in the text itself.

I've always struggled with people's perceptions of Bombadil as being in any way a 'major' or 'important' character, as there is simply not much in the way of textual evidence - the events in the Forest and Barrow downs could easily be left out of the story arc with minimal disruption as I see it.

Your interpretation of Bombadil here doesn't seem to be based on anything in the actual text (which is absolutely fine - my musings about Tracker Orc and Gollum have virtually no relation to what has actually happened in the books!), but it reinforces my belief that Bombadil is basically everything and nothing depending on how you view him. If this is in any way true, I think it shows the limitations of the character as written by Tolkien - if a character is open to absolutely any interpretation, then how can we pin him down in any meaningful way?

 

[Ent]

Ah, @TrackerOrc, you wade into the territories existing as the very foundation of "perception, perspective, and opinion."

In brief. my views come from and are based on these things:

1) with regard to their 'teaching or growth", it is not Bombadil who does this... but the circumstances within which they find themselves. We learn from experiences. We all know this inherently, and do so inherently. (And certainly, though perhaps unconsciously, Bombadil knows this as well, his whole life being lived as an 'experience.')
Bombadil simiply 'does' as he 'does' knowing Eru is in control.

2) with regard to seeing Bombadil (or any other character) as "greater than what is in the text", this is because of Tolkien's own statements regarding what he wanted to do with the text, and what he wanted the text to do for the people.
If we look just to the text alone, and only what it says, we do not read of any of the characters eating very many meals... so they woudl be starving all the time. We do not read of them ever going to the restroom - so they would be very uncomfortable all the time. We do not read of them ever going to school - so they would be very ignorant.
But well beyond these 'surface' things, Tolkien himself said ANY work of the type he was doing MUST contain the elements of religion and morality. "Just not overtly." He also said his work was FUNDAMENTALLY a "Catholic and Religious work" - so it is a primary purpose of all he wrote.
If we fail to look for these things, we miss comjpletely the what, why, and how of what he did - so our understanding of his work is FUNDAMENTALLY incomplete.

3) I am not saying in any way Bombadil is a "major character". He is simply a set of circumstances along the Hobbits' path as they continually grow from the experiences of working on behalf of the peoples of Middle-earth.

I'm not dealing with "Bombadil". Nor is the thread. What's being dealt with is his actions - what he did.

Hopefully this helps realign the angle of my writing so you can see the facet of the diamond from which my perspective is viewing it.

 

[Deimos]

I don't think it's fair to expect Bombadil to hang out by Old Man Willow for days on the off chance some hobbits will come by. It's not like they had an appointment set up.

Too funny 😆

I also don't think Bombadil should be expected to drop everything to escort the hobbits to his borders, Bree, or even beyond. As was implied at the Council of Elrond, Bombadil didn't worry too much about the Ring.

Pretty sure Old Tom was big on self reliance and personal accountability (Emerson would have liked Tom 😉).
He would be doing the Hobbits no favor to have initially escorted them, yet he was certainly aware of the potential danger of the barrow downs.
It wasn't merely on a whim that he taught them the verses about calling for help. Tom is probably gifted with some degree of prescience.

Bombadil didn't worry too much (or "at all") about anything outside his borders.
And inside of them his chief concern was pleasing Goldberry.
The guy had his priorities straight. 😉

 

[TrackerOrc]

Ah, @TrackerOrc, you wade into the territories existing as the very foundation of "perception, perspective, and opinion."

In brief. my views come from and are based on these things:

1) with regard to their 'teaching or growth", it is not Bombadil who does this... but the circumstances within which they find themselves. We learn from experiences. We all know this inherently, and do so inherently. (And certainly, though perhaps unconsciously, Bombadil knows this as well, his whole life being lived as an 'experience.')
Bombadil simiply 'does' as he 'does' knowing Eru is in control.

2) with regard to seeing Bombadil (or any other character) as "greater than what is in the text", this is because of Tolkien's own statements regarding what he wanted to do with the text, and what he wanted the text to do for the people.
If we look just to the text alone, and only what it says, we do not read of any of the characters eating very many meals... so they woudl be starving all the time. We do not read of them ever going to the restroom - so they would be very uncomfortable all the time. We do not read of them ever going to school - so they would be very ignorant.
But well beyond these 'surface' things, Tolkien himself said ANY work of the type he was doing MUST contain the elements of religion and morality. "Just not overtly." He also said his work was FUNDAMENTALLY a "Catholic and Religious work" - so it is a primary purpose of all he wrote.
If we fail to look for these things, we miss comjpletely the what, why, and how of what he did - so our understanding of his work is FUNDAMENTALLY incomplete.

3) I am not saying in any way Bombadil is a "major character". He is simply a set of circumstances along the Hobbits' path as they continually grow from the experiences of working on behalf of the peoples of Middle-earth.

I'm not dealing with "Bombadil". Nor is the thread. What's being dealt with is his actions - what he did.

Hopefully this helps realign the angle of my writing so you can see the facet of the diamond from which my perspective is viewing it.

I still don't see what the hobbits learn here though? They already know to be wary of the Old Forest and the Barrow Downs, so what is it they have learnt?
I don't see the rhyme that Bombadil gives them as anything like a tool, but much more of a get out of jail free card - the hobbits aren't part of their own rescue, it's all direct intervention by Bombadil himself.

As to the text, this was me being inexact with my words again; I meant the text of the overall works (the Canon, as it is sometimes called, though this is problematic in itself). I've never seen any evidence in the books to make me think of Bombadil as in any way being a major character, yet he's been around for millenia supposedly? Just doesn't seem to add up to me.

I follow what Tolkien himself said in the 'Foreword' as to the work itself - 'as for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none.'
He wanted 'a really long story that would hold the attention of readers, amuse them, delight them. and at times maybe excite them or deeply move them'. Well he definitely succeeded in my case, as I've been reading and re-reading the story for an awfully long time, and I don't think I've missed out on any understanding of the work at all by not approaching the books from a religious angle.

 

[TrackerOrc]

Too funny 😆



Pretty sure Old Tom was big on self reliance and personal accountability (Emerson would have liked Tom 😉).
He would be doing the Hobbits no favor to have initially escorted them, yet he was certainly aware of the potential danger of the barrow downs.
It wasn't merely on a whim that he taught them the verses about calling for help. Tom is probably gifted with some degree of prescience.

Bombadil didn't worry too much (or "at all") about anything outside his borders.
And inside of them his chief concern was pleasing Goldberry.
The guy had his priorities straight. 😉

But why wouldn't it have been good for the hobbits to have been escorted safely (maybe all the way to Bree itself)? What's good about Bombadil almost intentionally putting them in danger when he doesn't need to?
And if he doesn't really care about anything other than his own little kingdom, then why help the hobbits at all?
I just cannot get my head around Bombadil at all!

 

[Idril Celebrindal]

I think it's quite possible that, since fighting the barrow-wights is as easy as singing for Tom, he simply doesn't consider them as a real threat and therefore did not consider the fact that the hobbits may have trouble with them. For him the barrow-wights are about as dangerous as ants, so it never occours to him that they migh be dangerous to hobbits. Sounds kinda stupid, I know, but Tom's mind seems to be on a different frequency than ours. Of course, there is also the possibility that he wanted to test Frodo, although that doesn't reallys seem like him. Either way, it's not his job to babysit the hobbits, and he knows that they won't be ready for the greater journey ahead of them if he does everything for them.

 

[TrackerOrc]

I think it's quite possible that, since fighting the barrow-wights is as easy as singing for Tom, he simply doesn't consider them as a real threat and therefore did not consider the fact that the hobbits may have trouble with them. For him the barrow-wights are about as dangerous as ants, so it never occours to him that they migh be dangerous to hobbits. Sounds kinda stupid, I know, but Tom's mind seems to be on a different frequency than ours. Of course, there is also the possibility that he wanted to test Frodo, although that doesn't reallys seem like him. Either way, it's not his job to babysit the hobbits, and he knows that they won't be ready for the greater journey ahead of them if he does everything for them.

But if he doesn't consider the Barrow-wights a threat, why would he give them the rhyme?
I don't think that 'babysitting' equates with not putting them in mortal danger either!

 

[Deimos]

But why wouldn't it have been good for the hobbits to have been escorted safely (maybe all the way to Bree itself)? What's good about Bombadil almost intentionally putting them in danger when he doesn't need to?
And if he doesn't really care about anything other than his own little kingdom, then why help the hobbits at all?
I just cannot get my head around Bombadil at all!

If he escorts them how does that teach them self reliance?
And danger is everywhere... so he escorts them to the borders of his land....or even to Bree.
Who "helicopters" them when they leave Bree? (He doesn't know about Strider being there)