Does Ilúvatar deserve to be worshipped?

There can be no freedom without sacrifice.

Without sacrifice, perhaps not. But without evil, certainly.

Then again, an omnipotent deity like Eru could've made it so that sacrifice is unecessary for anything. But he was just a literary tool, not a watertight theology, so any sort of flaws we may pick out really don't matter, as Eru served his purpose in the story well.

Varokhâr said:

Then again, an omnipotent deity like Eru could've made it so that sacrifice is unecessary for anything. But he was just a literary tool, not a watertight theology, so any sort of flaws we may pick out really don't matter, as Eru served his purpose in the story well.

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Tolkien tried really hard to present Middle-Earth as a part of our world:

1971 BBC Interview said:

Dennis Gerrolt: I thought that conceivably Midgard might be Middle-earth or have some connection?

J.R.R.T.: Oh yes, they're the same word. Most people have made this mistake of thinking Middle-earth is a particular kind of Earth or is another planet of the science fiction sort but it's just an old fashioned word for this world we live in, as imagined surrounded by the Ocean.

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Letter #151 said:

Middle-earth is just archaic English for [?], the inhabited world of men

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Letter #165 said:

'Middle-earth', by the way, is not a name of a never-never land without relation to the world we live in (like the Mercury of Eddison). It is just a use of Middle English middel-erde (or erthe), altered from Old English Middangeard: the name for the inhabited lands of Men 'between the seas'. And though I have not attempted to relate the shape of the mountains and land-masses to what geologists may say or surmise about the nearer past, imaginatively this 'history' is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet.

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His remarks in Myths Transformed about good sprouting out of evil closely parallel his views about the real world (letter #64). Also, Tolkien reffers to Eru as God several times in the letters; I doubt he, a convinced christian, could have conceived a God who would be alien to christianity - seeing that LotR is a catholic work (cf. letter #142).

Thorondor_ said:

Also, Tolkien reffers to Eru as God several times in the letters; I doubt he, a convinced christian, could have conceived a God who would be alien to christianity - seeing that LotR is a catholic work (cf. letter #142).

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Very true; I know I would've done the same in his shoes. His Middle-earth reflects how he saw our Middle-earth in many ways, including religiously, at least inasmuch as some of his ideas behind the character of Eru are concerned. Eru always seemed to be based very much on the Abrahamic god, to me.

I'm just trying to avoid bringing up real-world religion, since I understand it's mostly a forbidden subject here

Varokhâr said:

Very true; I know I would've done the same in his shoes. His Middle-earth reflects how he saw our Middle-earth in many ways, including religiously, at least inasmuch as some of his ideas behind the character of Eru are concerned. Eru always seemed to be based very much on the Abrahamic god, to me.

I'm just trying to avoid bringing up real-world religion, since I understand it's mostly a forbidden subject here

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Tolkien might have attempted to make Eru in the image of the Abrahamic God but Eru is nothing like the Abrahamic God, nor is his take on the Silmarillon anywhere near the actual account of the Bible. Not even close. I would suggest that none of you continue with this line of thought since we are not supposed to discuss religion in this forum, and every comparisson done to the Abrahamic God to any other deity for that matter -- Middle-Earth or otherwise -- is offensive to me as I worship the Abrahamic God without question.

I hope you all would respect that.

Woo-hoo, the old dragon left his hoard once again....

Ancalagon said:

Is Ilúvatar worthy of worship or is the question itself irrelevant?

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Did he ask to be worshipped?





Both worlds are - eventually - round and here the resemblance does not cease...

Walter said:

Did he ask to be worshipped?

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Lmao - that's one of the best points. He didn't ask, so it's all good

For my part, I won't draw any more comparisons between Tolkien's deity and those depicted in our world (given the rules an' all), but as one who honors many pre-Abrahamic deities, any comparisons don't offend me - and shouldn't offend anyone.

A little self-examination never hurt anyone.

*bows out respectfully*

I would suggest that none of you continue with this line of thought since we are not supposed to discuss religion in this forum

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There is no regulation restricting discussions on religion as long as it is related to Tolkien's work; our mods can confirm that.

Narya said:

Eru is nothing like the Abrahamic God.

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Eh?

Both are creative

Both permit free will

Both use emissaries

Both have a chosen people

Both cause earth-changing floods

Both have mountain fanes


Both have ... oh why am I doing this ?!

Shireman D said:

Eh?

Both are creative

Both permit free will

Both use emissaries

Both have a chosen people

Both cause earth-changing floods

Both have mountain fanes


Both have ... oh why am I doing this ?!

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You've laid out the similarities, now what of the differences? And as for the whole Eru worship thing, at the very least he deserves some thanks. He gave us being, which alone is a gift greater than any gift anyone else can give. He gave us a chance at life, he gave us the ability to see, hear, taste, touch. These basic commodities we take for granted, he gave us. I'm not trying to deviate from the topic, but I believe that men, and maybe elves and dwarves acknowledged this, so that's why they worshipped him.

I must ask a question here. Are we to assume Eru as an Abrahamic god, god in general, or what?

What about the differences?

Well that's the point of my slightly exasperated exit from my last posting I am not sure that there are any.

Is Eru-Illuvator an Abrahamic god? Difficult to read it any other way particularly in view of JRRT's own descriptions of the conceptual frame in which he wrote.

Is Eru-Illuvator the Abrahamic God? Well, the All-holiest has been called stranger things by those who seek him out, on the whole I think they are the same.

p.s. please read the line at the bottom of this post very carefully and note that it is about horticulture rather than theology: these is an important statement there! Mind you I am sometimes think that the boundary between the two is pretty whispy.

Shireman D said:

p.s. please read the line at the bottom of this post very carefully and note that it is about horticulture rather than theology: these is an important statement there! Mind you I am sometimes think that the boundary between the two is pretty whispy.

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Hmmmm, really. When dealing on such topics though, it IS hard to distuinguish one from the other. Oh well. Sorry.

morgoththe1 said:

Hmmmm, really. When dealing on such topics though, it IS hard to distuinguish one from the other. Oh well. Sorry.

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No apology needed: all good wishes, or lettuce if you prefer: doing well since some rain finally arrived.

Question; Should Eru be worshiped?

Nice to see you back Anc

Walter said:

Did he ask to be worshipped?

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This is indeed a very good point Walter, and one that I also have thought on.

In my opinion, Eru should not be worshiped nor did he ever wish the worship of either Men or Elves. To him both peoples were his "Children". Does a father really wish to have blind adoration or worship from his children?

It seems to me that Eru remained too distant from his children, even when he talked directly to Men, for worship to be involved in the relationship. When Men first awoke, they heard the voice of Eru and they called on him with many questions. Yet rather than display his power and knowledge, his answer to these questions was simple yet profound.

From Morgoth's Ring
Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth
The Debate of Finrod and Andreth : [The 'Tale of Adanel']

'First seek tofind the answer for yourselves. For ye will have joy in the finding, and so grow from childhood and become wise. Do not seek to leave childhood before your time.'

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Eru wanted his children to grow and increase in knowledge and wisdon in and of themselves. The only ones in all Arda, or anywhere else for that matter, who craved worship were Melkor and after him, Sauron.

Gothmog said:

The only ones in all Arda, or anywhere else for that matter, who craved worship were Melkor and after him, Sauron.

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And that is one of the most telling characteristics. Eru could've done a better job, I think, but he still never desired nor demanded worship of any sort from his creations, which alone makes him worthy of a measure of respect.

Those who demand worship are usually the least deserving of it.

(ah heck, bowing out is no fun )

Ancalagon said:

When one considers the devastation upon Arda since the beginning, one must wonder whether Eru indeed deserved to be praised. Man seems the only sentient being upon Arda to have ever really praised Eru, yet should all races bow down before him/her and be thankful, such as the Evil races do before Melkor or Sauron. In saying that, they are but Demigods, neither of whom really deserve worship.

Is Ilúvatar worthy of worship or is the question itself irrelevant?

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Oh BOY do I wish we could discuss religion now! It's SUCH a good question generalized out to reality!

Barley

Yet rather than display his power and knowledge, his answer to these questions was simple yet profound.

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Yet the Atrabeth also states:

By the holiness of good men - their direct attachment to Eru, before and above all Eru's works - the Elves may be delivered from the last of their griefs: sadness; the sadness that must come even from the unselfish love of anything less than Eru.

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So love of anything else than Eru is a bringer of grief, sadness.

Concerning the worship of Eru, there is an interesting note in the letters (sorry for the length):

Letter #156 said:

So ended Numenor-Atlantis and all its glory. But in a kind of Noachian situation the small party of the Faithful in Numenor escaped in Nine Ships under the leadership of Elendil – inheriting the hatred of Sauron, the friendship of the Elves, the knowledge of the True God, and (less happily) the yearning for longevity, and the habit of embalming and the building of splendid tombs – their only 'hallows': or almost so. But the 'hallow' of God and the Mountain had perished, and there was no real substitute. Also when the 'Kings' came to an end there was no equivalent to a 'priesthood': the two being identical in Numenorean ideas. So while God (Eru) was a datum of good Numenorean philosophy, and a prime fact in their conception of history. He had at the time of the War of the Ring no worship and no hallowed place. And that kind of negative truth was characteristic of the West, and all the area under Numenorean influence: the refusal to worship any 'creature', and above all no 'dark lord' or satanic demon, Sauron, or any other, was almost as far as they got. They had (I imagine) no petitionary prayers to God ; but preserved the vestige of thanksgiving. (Those under special Elvish influence might call on the angelic powers for help in immediate peril or fear of evil enemies.)... It is to be presumed that with the reemergence of the lineal priest kings (of whom Luthien the Blessed Elf-maiden was a foremother) the worship of God would be renewed, and His Name (or title) be again more often heard. But there would be no temple of the True God while Numenorean influence lasted.

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This atests the following: that the memory of Eru was preserved, that there did exist priest-kings, with spiritual ascendence, and that the worshipping of Eru will be renewed.

The fact that Eru is worshipped individually reminds of the aprochyphe Gospel of Thomas:

Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty.

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Tolkien's Eru is obviously a somewhat fictionalized version of the God that Tolkien himself worshipped which explains, in part, why certain points are not answered.

God doesn't jump in and make everything right because in the real world God doesn't jump in and make everything right. And both Gods keep secrets, for example the fate of Men after death.

But from the beginning we see Eru attempting to create more individuality and independence among the Ainur. To do this requires allowing the Ainur to fail, as Melkor and others did. Does this mean that in the end everyone will be restored, even Melkor? Well, some Christians believe that in the end even Satan will repent and be restored.

But Tolkien usually doesn't let himself go beyond what he himself believes could be true in his depiction of Melkor (and of the Ainur). Or rather, he tries not do. A difficulty is that Tolkien wants the joys of pagan mythology with his multitudinous gods but also wants monotheism. A result of this is that it the accounts are very vague as to what the powers of Manwë and the others actually are. Have they really rejected Middle-earth to live in joy in the West, or are they in the West mostly because their task for creation is largely complete? Do Valar such as Tulkas and Oromë even hear any prayers raised to them? And do they, in fact, do anything about them? And are such tales as he tells of the Valar all intended to be true within Tolkien's subcreation, or are some of them supposed to be distortions introduced by Men. That Tolkien played with this idea shows the Tolkien realized that his Valar lacked perfection as presented.

Theologically Tolkien's God is somewhat like the God of Job, who wagers with the devil, just as Eru wages with Melkor that he can, in time, undo and better all Melkor's destruction through his own methods. The story of Middle-earth then becomes part of the story of the great game between Eru and Melkor in which, however, Eru is also attempting to educate the Children of Eru through their own errors and successes.

To have Eru, half way through the Lord of the Rings just come in and fix everything up would be as unreal as having God come in and fix up all the problems in the middle of a James Bond novel. If God behaved like that, neither the story of The Lord of the Rings nor James Bond novels would exist.

This is probably one of the reasons why Tolkien places his story in a pre-Abrahamic era and normally shows such separation between Eru and the Valar, in that he's writing a story, not presenting a theology to be believed. And it is difficult to carry this out. When Númenoreans pray that the Valar turn the mûmak, is there indeed a possibility that the battlefield is surrounded by invisible Valar and Maiar who may do such a thing, if petitioned, but not otherwise?

But it is not by chance in The Lord of the Rings that the chapter following the introduction of Sauron in Gandalf's story introduces Sauron's counterpart, Elbereth, in the song of the Elves and suggests throughout that there are such things as destinies and powers that mean things to happen, such as meaning Bilbo to find the Ring. And Eru is supposed to be behind such powers, if you follow the chain up far enough.

Deserving of praise, yes. Deserving of worship, perhaps. I think the real question is whether or not Eru cares if he is praised or worshiped, or even if he gives special treatment to those who do engage in such reverence. Seemingly without ego, I'm sure he doesn't really care for himself, but through the Valar had the ideas of praise and worship woven into the tapestry of Arda.

So it could be that, metaphysically, praise and worship serve a specific function with respect to Eru or even possibly the Valar themselves. Though that's pure speculation and, as far as I know, there is nothing in canon to suggest this. It's just my own thought.

Hmm, I missed a trick with this question, rather than Does Ilúvatar deserve to be worshipped? I should have asked: Does Ilúvatar exist? This is certainly not a religious question, simply asked out of observation. The fables of men refer to a voice, but nothing material or tangible. So I wonder now, does he exist or is he simply a fable of men and elves alike? Who contrived the story of Ilúvatar and what is the evidence to support his existence?

Walter, wonderful answer Then again, if he doesn't really exist he would neither deserve or ask to be worshipped.