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Durin's Bane or Whistling Past the Graveyard

Well at least the twins disagree on the quality of My Novel:
Originally posted by Aragil
Now this would be an entertaining (if rather short) novel and sequel.

Originally posted by Greenwood
First reaction: don't expect a bestseller.

Greenwood: No I was not asking that question, but the answers were entertaining.

Aragil: Dain was outside the room, what about The Ten inside the Room? Note, this is a small-minded novel and cities only have 10 people. Thus The Ten is a significant population of my Inner Earth.
 
My Screenplay:

Doni the dwarf is sitting around the Hall of Records with his pals Dobi, Maynard, Patsi, and a few others.

Dobi: "Hey, was that a scream from down below? I guess I'll go and check it out."

Dobi exits, never to return. After a few minutes, Maynard looks up from his scribery.

Maynard: "Hey, what's up with Dobi? He's been gone kind of a long time. I think I'll go look for him."

Maynard exits, never to return. After a few more minutes, Doni blinks his eyes.

Doni: "Hmmm... what could have happened to Dobi and Maynard? I'll take a walk down to the lower halls."

Doni exits. The other dwarves contine with their important record-keeping duties. Soon, Doni comes running through the door.

Doni: "Hey, guys, I was on my way down to the basement when I heard a lot of yells and this funny whipping noise, and started feeling really weird. Then I saw this, um, thing, only I didn't really get a very good look at it 'cause it scared the pants off me." (Displays his exposed boxer shorts.) "I suddenly realized it'd be nice to live out in the sunshine for a change. Work on my tan, ya know? See ya..."

Doni exits. The other dwarves look at each other.

Patsi: "Hmmm... do you think we should go down and check out that whippy thing?"

Fade to black.

I think it's got a better shot at getting through rewrite than Harad's novel, anyhow... :p
 
couldn't we switch to "If a tree vomits in the forest, does anyone know".


"The dreaded puking tree of Mozambique" -- Michael Palin
 
All you know. NLC has called and a treatment is being prepared. 1 or 2 movies?
 
I saw Patton and Blazing Saddles... I used to listen to the Doobie Brothers...

What is interesting in this "logical" debate is the following:

Facts
1) Gandalf did not know a Balrog was in Moria.
2) Gandalf, Aragorn, et. al. knew something really bad was there, named Durin's Bane.
3) Aragorn says its stupid to go into Moria.

So, you have only a few choices:

Conclusions:
1) Gandalf is stupid.
2) Aragorn is smarter than Gandalf, since he warns Gandalf specifically.
3) Gandalf had some other unknown motive in going to Moria, that he could not convince Aragorn or did not tell Aragorn.
4) It just made the book better.
 
Excuse me while I run away from the bunfight you are trying to start....
 
Bunfight? You mean with Bunnywhippit? Is she around here?
And what do Blazing Saddles, Patton, and the Doobie Bros have to do with Buddy Rich, Gene Kruppa, Dionne W, or Ms. Cleo?
 
Eonwe

I would offer another alternative: Gandalf thought all the other routes were potentially more dangerous for the Fellowship.


(Besides, he thought they could slip through while the Balrog was playing a few sets down in the Khazad-dum afterhours club with Azog, Jr. and the Orcettes. :) )
 
When looking at UT for clues as to "Sauron's Duplicity" I was reminded of the connection between the Elves and Moria. Again, this poses the question of why so little was realized about Durin's Bane.

But eventually Galadriel became aware that Sauron again, as in the ancient days of the captivity of Melkor [see The Silmarillion p. 51], had been left behind. Or rather, since Sauron had as yet no single name, and his operations had not been perceived to proceed from a single evil spirit, prime servant of Melkor, she perceived that there was an evil controlling purpose abroad in the world, and that it seemed to proceed from a source further to the East, beyond Eriador and the Misty Mountains.
Celeborn and Galadriel therefore went eastwards, about the year 700 of the Second Age, and established the (primarily but by no means solely) Noldorin realm of Eregion. It may be that Galadriel chose it because she knew of the Dwarves of Khazad-dûm (Moria). There were and always remained some Dwarves on the eastern side of Ered Lindon, 3 where the very ancient mansions of Nogrod and Belegost had been - not far from Nenuial; but they had transferred most of their strength to Khazad-dûm. Celeborn had no liking for Dwarves of any race (as he showed to Gimli in Lothlórien), and never forgave them for their part in the destruction of Doriath; but it was only the host of Nogrod that took part in that assault, and it was destroyed in the battle of Sam Athrad {The Silmarillion pp. 233-5]. The Dwarves of Belegost were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome, and this hastened their departure eastwards to Khazad-dûm. 4 Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to the Elves. In any case, Galadriel was more far-sighted in this than Celeborn; and she perceived from the beginning that Middle-earth could not be saved from "the residue of evil" that Morgoth had left behind him save by a union of all the peoples who were in their way and in their measure opposed to him. She looked upon the Dwarves also with the eye of a commander, seeing in them the finest warriors to pit against the Orcs. Moreover Galadriel was a Noldo, and she had a natural sympathy with their minds and their passionate love of crafts of hand, a sympathy much greater than that found among many of the Eldar: the Dwarves were "the Children of Aulë," and Galadriel, like others of the Noldor, had been a pupil of Aulë and Yavanna in Valinor.
 
Harad

What is your point with the last quote? Is it to show that Galadriel was aware of Moria? I did not know that was ever in question. I thought the question here was did anyone know that Durin's Bane = Balrog? Considerable evidence has been produced by various people in the form of quotations from LOTR to show that until the Fellowship's encounter with the Balrog, no one knew it was a Balrog.
 
Also, that although there was deep friendship between the Noldor of Eregion and the dwarves of Moria in the Second Age, after the War of the Elves and Sauron, this union wasn't happening anymore. The Noldor were all overseas, dead or in the havens or Rivendell. So when the Balrog was discovered in the Third Age, there was no traffic or friendship anymore between the elves and the dwarves of Moria.

right?
 
LOTR to show that until the Fellowship's encounter with the Balrog, no one knew it was a Balrog.

Its rather tiresome to see this repeated since it was NEVER a point of contention. The issue is "does it make any sense that NO ONE KNEW IT WAS A BALROG?"

The quote I posted is a reminder to myself, the rest of you not needing any, that there was a long relationship between Galadriel and Moria. Furthermore even after Moria the City disappeared Galadriel stayed put! Therefore if no else, Galadriel should have been interested. She was certainly an "internationalist," something that Dain Ironfoot was criticized (unjustly IMO) for not being. The idea that Galadriel would not care to investigate, nor uncover--she was a First Age Elf and very aware of Balrogs--why a CITY next door to her was obliterated, is, frankly, absurd.
 
The issue is "does it make any sense that NO ONE KNEW IT WAS A BALROG?"

Harad

Thank you for spelling it out for those of us who wonder what the point of some of your posts are. :)

My answer is yes. As has been pointed out all the Balrogs were thought to be destroyed ages ago, so there is no reason for anyone to have thought of Durin's Bane being a Balrog. There is zero evidence that anyone who might be in a position to recognize a Balrog ever saw Durin's Bane before the Fellowship's encounter with it. Gandalf has been in Moria before without encountering Durin's Bane. Prior to the Fellowship's encounter the only ones to have any dealings with Durin's Bane were the dwarves of Moria and we do not know if any that had direct encounters survived the meeting or were able to give descriptions. As for your recent post about Galadriel, I know of no evidence of her entering Moria after Durin's Bane drove out the dwarves. There is nothing inconsistent or illogical in LOTR to justify your question. I realize, however, that you do not like that answer because you want Gandalf to have known about the Balrog so you can justify your argument that he should not have taken the Fellowship through Moria, but there is no reason for Gandalf to have known that Durin's Bane was a Balrog. There is also ample reason for Gandalf to think that they could sneak through without encountering Durin's Bane, which has not been reported in a couple of hundred years.
 
Harad- your question here reminds me of that old story about sour milk. 'Gee, this sour milk tastes horrible.' 'Oh yeah? Let me try it and see for myself.(Gulp) You were right, that really did taste horrible'
How curious do the denizens of Middle-Earth have to be? Why can't they be satisfied knowing that there is something very dangerous in Moria, without needing to dispatch some poor scout to find out what it is that's so dangerous? IMO the words of the Dwarves should be enough- there is a powerful being who killed Durin the Deathless and razed the city. Whether the Sindar used to call that being Hank, Durin's Bain, or Balrog isn't really important enough to dispatch a scout for. It is (IMO) completely likely what other posters are saying here- those that saw the Balrog died, those that felt it's presence and fled reported everything they knew. Apparently everything they knew was not enough to ID the thing as a Balrog, but was sufficiently frightening to keep the curious out of Moria for a millenia or so.
Galadriel was apparently satisfied knowing that there was some dark shadow living in Moria without feeling the need to be on a first-name basis with it. I just don't feel that what happened to the Dwarven City was all that indicative of a Balrog- they never raised cities (alone) in the Silmarillion and they never had dealings with the Dwarves. The ability of this one Balrog to escape during the cataclysmic end of the first age was probably as puzzling to Galadriel, Celeborn, and Gandalf as it is to me. The fact that it was able to get buried in mountains near an existing Dwarf-city without that city being destroyed is also somewhat of an oddity. Probably most of the wise would assume that Durin's Bane had been buried under the Mountains before the city was founded, and this assumption would preclude them from considering Durin's Bane to be a Balrog. At least that's my two cents on the issue.
 
Dol Guldur started being a problem 800 years before! It wasnt until more than 100 years after Moria fell that Dol Guldur was associated with Sauron. Why these 900 years are particularly distracting to Galadriel isnt clear to me.

Meanwhile the "sour milk" at Moria resulted in the death of countless 1000s dwarves and the abandonment of a City full of Galadriel's allies, according to the useless quote I posted.

You want to chalk this up to yet ANOTHER inexplicable blunder by the Elves and Istari--OK.

In Khazad-dum did Durin Dwarf
A stately pleasure dome decree
Where Mirrormere the sacred water ran
Thru caverns measureless to man
Down to a sunless sea.
 
Hey, it's Samuel Taylor Coleridge Gimli's poem! I wondered when someone would dig up that quote.

Why would Galadriel need to know the identity of the shadow under Moria, beyond the fact that it was known as Durin's Bane? How would Galadriel know that sending Elves into the Dwarf City wouldn't produce a whole bunch of dead elves and no positive ID on the Bane? I don't think this was a blunder on Galadriel's part, she just decided to let sleeping Durin's Banes lie.
 
You want to chalk this up to yet ANOTHER inexplicable blunder by the Elves and Istari--OK.

The Istari were apparently sent to ME to deal with Sauron, not to investigate and deal with every disaster that came down the pike ("Gandalf the Grey -- fighting for Truth, Justice and the Middle-earth Way"). There is also no evidence that the elves considered it their responsibility to deal with every nasty that appeared in Middle-earth. If the dwarves in their greed for mithril "delved too deep" and awoke some creature of the underworld, I don't see why anyone would consider it anybody elses problem unless Durin's Bane gave evidence that it was going to make forays into the surrounding countryside around Moria. In hundreds of years, Durin's Bane had shown no such inclination. Why should anyone want to borrow trouble by going to investigate it? "Let sleeping Durin's Banes lie" seems like a motto to live by.
 
COuld the Balrog have been 'walled in' deep under the earth and long since forgotten to be alive? Do they hibernate? Just curious
 

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