Durin's Bane or Whistling Past the Graveyard

[Landroval]

Yes, I agree that they all knew that "something" was there - that's what kept the Dwarves away for so long. I don't think that Gandalf nor Aragorn actually saw it on their previous trips through, as either one would recognize it.

And, yes, it is a mystery why surviving Dwarves would not have seen enough to describe it sufficiently for others to recognize even if they themselves did not. Plot hole, anyone?

And, yes Harad, I do realize what the "point" is, even though I may not be "Wise". Gandalf does not know about the Balrog, but should if the Dwarves did. My conclusion is that the Dwarves did not put the name Balrog on Durin's Bane and apparently did not describe it well enough for others to do so.

 

[Landroval]

Well put, Donnie B. That about sums it up (and, I guess, wraps it up too.)

 

[Dhôn-Buri-Dhôn]

Originally posted by Landroval
Well put, Donnie B. That about sums it up (and, I guess, wraps it up too.)

Don't count on that... in my short experience here, I've noticed that Harad always gets in the last word.

 

[Harad]

My point! Ray! My point!

Here is an instance where the communications between the allies and research among the Wise fell a bit short. Okay, real short.

Yes its a mundane point, almost criminally so. But what the hay! It beats oliphaunt jokes. Now back to "Could Gollum beat Ghan Bari Ghan in a Spelling Bee?"

 

[Snaga]

So... you weren't arguing the Gandalf the Schemer conspiracy theory?? Goroshimura shame on you, for sowing needless discord.

 

[Bucky]

I don't get 'what gibberish'..... by VoK on page 3.

Goroshimura's post on that page is EXACTLY what I was saying before that.

I thought the original questions were basically Why didn't they know a Balrog was in Moria.

Along the way, many miscomceptions were posted, which I corrected on page 2, I believe.

The proof I presented on page 3 that Gandalf had no idea it was a Balrog until he saw it is irrefutable as it comes from TFOR verbatim.

I can't wait to read the rest of the absurd thread rebuttle's later when I have time (I quit after Goshi's post)....

 

[Harad]

The proof I presented on page 3 that Gandalf had no idea it was a Balrog until he saw it is irrefutable as it comes from TFOR verbatim.

Proof? Then 1 hand clapping is a round of applause. Thats the "proof" that was also labeled a "news flash." No one was arguing that Gandalf knew. It must be satisfying to "prove" a point that is not in dispute. Still dont expect the Genius of the Week Award.

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Harad
Mormegil's theory makes sense....EXCEPT...

Why doesnt Dain clue in Balin? And Gloin, 25 years after Balin went belly up?

Maybe Dain wanted to see if the Balrog had gone. Maybe both Balin and Gloin were expendable. Who knows the inner workings of Dain Ironfoot's mind? Perhaps Dain wanted to find out if at long last a Dwarf could despatch a Balrog.

Originally posted by Harad
Further, Dain was quite reasonable as far as Dwarfs go--compare with Thorin.

Is this the same Dain Ironfoot who led an army (originally) against Thranduil, the Elvenking?? I feel sure that Dain was as greedy as other Dwarves such as Thorin.

Originally posted by Harad
Further further you have to be consistently consistent. If the Dwarfs were that greedy and secretive, why not have Glorfindel clear out Moria (he wasnt doing anything, anyway). Then when its safe, come in and claim the "ancient Dwarf Kingdom" and give Glorfindel an exterminating fee.

I don't think that the heavenly Glorfindel can be bought. Also, given Dain's experience of gold-hungry Elves (Thranduil), I don't think he would have either trusted or hired an Elf to clear out Moria for him.

 

[Harad]

This Dain-bashing has got to stop!

"Some are in the hunt," said the wizard, "but most have gone back to their eyries. They would not stay here, and departed with the first light of morning. Dain has crowned their chief with gold, and sworn friendship with them for ever."

The others remained with Dain; for Dain dealt his treasure well.

Yet a fourteenth share of all the silver and gold, wrought and unwrought, was given up to Bard; for Dain said: "We will honour the agreement of the dead, and he has now the Arkenstone in his keeping."

But Dáin Ironfoot, his cousin, who came from the Iron Hills to his aid and was also his rightful heir, became then King Dáin II, and the Kingdom under the Mountain was restored, even as Gandalf had desired. Dáin proved a great and wise king, and the Dwarves prospered and grew strong again in his day.

'and now we hear that Dáin has fallen, fighting in Dale again, even while we fought here. I should call that a heavy loss, if it was not a wonder rather that in his great age he could still wield his axe as mightily as they say that he did, standing over the body of King Brand before the Gate of Erebor until the darkness fell.

 

[Mormegil]

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
OK, if you want a more detailed response to Mormegil's theory, it goes like this.


So exactly what is more sinister than a Balrog?? If anything saying nothing about the Balrog invites people to go and pay a visit. Which is exactly what Balin does.

I contend Dain can't have known specifically what Durin's Bane was, or detail nature of the threat posed, or Balin would have stayed at home.

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Maybe he's sees it. But who has he met who has described a Balrog to him? Possible I suppose, but not certain.

First of all VofK, I said it was a theory. In this particular theory Dain sees the Balrog.
Secondly, the description of a Balrog musyt be well known a,mongst the free peoples of ME. There are songs and tales of the First Age which are well known in the Third Age.

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mormegil
2. The heroic tales of the First Age are known to the free peoples of ME. Especially about Gondolin and the fall of both Ecthelion and Glorfindel who killed Balrogs.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ah yes, they've all been reading the Silmarillion again. The stories from the end of the second age are shrouded myth and misinformation, those from the First Age are scarcely common currency.

They don't have to read the Silmarillion. There must surely be Elves in the Grey Havens, Rivendell, Mirkwood and Lothlorien who were around in the First Age, who both remember and were witness to the tales of the fall of Feanor and the fall of Gondolin. Such people would be Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, Cirdan, and the reincarnated Glorfindel. Also the tales of the First Age were told in song throughout the Third Age by the free peoples of ME. It is presumable that they would have heard of Glorfindel and Ecthelion fighting the Balrogs.

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
I grant you that its obvious that Dwarves are no match for Durin's Bane.

Thankyou. I knew I made sense at one point.

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Ah yes of course. As the powerful elves frequently went off to liberate dwarf-kingdoms... I really can't see that this is big concern. Why would the elves want Moria?

I did not say that Elves "frequently went off to liberate Dwarf-kingdoms". I was merely stating that it would be possible for an Elf such as Elrond, Glorfindel, Thranduil or Celeborn to enter Moria and kill the Balrog.
Dain's experience of Elves is that they are greedy folk, such as Thranduil, that will try to steal his family's treasure away from him.
As for "Why would the elves want Moria?". It is the only known source of mithril in ME. Also it would be valued as a tactical position against Sauron.

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Thranduil's greed is not really greed at all. He is concerned for his friends in Lake Town. In any case, there is no great wealth lying around in Moria. Gloin and Gimli say as much: Balin is hoping to mine mithril. Glorfindel the miner? Somehow I doubt it?

From Dain's point of view Thranduil is greedy. He wanted to take the Arkenstone, and wanted a share of the treasure from the lonely mountain. Remember that this theory relies on Dain's point of view. Thranduil isn't exactly trustworthy in Dain's point of view, is he?

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
So exactly what is more sinister than a Balrog?? If anything saying nothing about the Balrog invites people to go and pay a visit. Which is exactly what Balin does.

I contend Dain can't have known specifically what Durin's Bane was, or detail nature of the threat posed, or Balin would have stayed at home

There are plenty more things more sinister than a Balrog. Just listen to Gandalf. He will speek of the Balrog, but will not speak of the far worse things that he saw whilst battling the Balrog.
Making people think that there is something worse than a Balrog in Moria would make ebven great Elf-lords, capable of defeating a Balrog, scared to enter.
As I have mentioned before, maybe Dain saw Balin as expendable.
Dain couldn't have made Balin stay at home. Balin was a higjhly respected Dwarf. A member of the royal family, and wealthy in his own right. Dain did not give Balin leave willingly, but IMO he could do nothing to stop him.


Hey, it's only a theory folks. It's a way of explaining this mystery without saying that Tolkien made a few mistakes in the writing of his masterpiece.

 

[Mormegil]

Harad,
I do agree with you that Dain was a great king of Dwarves. Your quotes show him as a loyal friend to both the Eagles and to the Men of Laketown.
However, my theory relies on him being mistrusting of the greedy Elves. Which you show no evidence of him being friendly with. IMO Dain was mistrustful of Elves, stemming from Thranduil's appalling behaviour in the Hobbit.

 

[Bucky]

1) DB was in Moria for a while, I think years, before the dwarves left. I can't
remember the timing, it kept killing the dwarf king.

I believe the Balrog killed The King (Durin # something) in 1980 3rd Age, then his son Nain the following year, 1981.
Then the Dwarves booked out of Moria.
So, it could be anywhere from 2 days to 2 years.


Proof? Then 1 hand clapping is a round of applause. Thats the "proof" that
was also labeled a "news flash." No one was arguing that Gandalf knew.

Um, read your 4th post, Loremaster Harad:

>>>Wouldnt Gandalf know what it was based upon the descriptions

 

[Harad]

Sorry you cant understand my hyothetical posting. My argument was that Gandalf SHOULD have known based upon using reason on the historical facts. Of course, according to LOTR, he DIDNT know. Hence the point of the post. (I can't believe I am explaining this.)

Why dont you let it rest. You often have decent ideas. But I dont know what your getting at here.

 

[Snaga]

Mormegil,

Sorry about my cranky tone. I'm usually not as sarcastic as that.

However I AM often that argumentative!! Its no problem to post a theory, but a theory is there to be knocked down... So don't be surprised if some of us try!

They don't have to read the Silmarillion. There must surely be Elves in the Grey Havens, Rivendell, Mirkwood and Lothlorien who were around in the First Age, who both remember and were witness to the tales of the fall of Feanor and the fall of Gondolin. Such people would be Galadriel, Celeborn, Elrond, Cirdan, and the reincarnated Glorfindel. Also the tales of the First Age were told in song throughout the Third Age by the free peoples of ME. It is presumable that they would have heard of Glorfindel and Ecthelion fighting the Balrogs.

Some tales from the First Age were told by some people, of which some were really believed in. Remember all the misinformation about actually-existing elfdom Lorien: Eomer, Boromir and Gimli all thought it was a bad place. In Rohan they had stopped believing in Hobbits. In Gondor they didn't know Isildur had taken the Ring. In the North, many didn't know that Isildur has gone back to Minas Tirith after Sauron's downfall. These are just a few examples of the lack of widespread clear and accurate knowledge of the past - far more recent past than the death of Feanor or the fall of Gondolin. I'm not disputing that some knew of Balrogs enough to ID one (Legolas and Gandalf did); but we can as easily believe that Dain didn't know of them, as believe that he did.

Remember that this theory relies on Dain's point of view. Thranduil isn't exactly trustworthy in Dain's point of view, is he?

Well if he doesn't trust him, does he believe his wild tales from the First Age, or even talk to him enough to listen? In any case, there's mistrust, and then there's complete misunderstanding of motivations. I really can't take seriously the suggestion that Dain worries about an Elven take-over of Moria, by Thranduil or anyone else. Especially if Durin's Bane is in the way.

There are plenty more things more sinister than a Balrog. Just listen to Gandalf. He will speek of the Balrog, but will not speak of the far worse things that he saw whilst battling the Balrog.
Making people think that there is something worse than a Balrog in Moria would make ebven great Elf-lords, capable of defeating a Balrog, scared to enter.

I don't think Gandalf said those 'nameless things' were worse than the Balrog. A Balrog is an evil Maia: thats pretty damn bad. To make the threat seem worse than a Balrog he'd have to be going around saying: 'So you think a Balrog's bad, well check this'... Lets face it, a Balrog is off-putting enough for anyone. If someone doesn't say what the threat is, you don't instantly assume its going to be worse than one of the worst evils ever to roam Middle Earth. To say that by not naming it a Balrog he thinks everyone's going to think 'OMG, Dain won't say what it was. I thought it was just one of those puny Balrogs that noone has seen or heard of since the First Age, but it must be WAY WAY scarier than that' is a bit of stretch don't you think?

As I have mentioned before, maybe Dain saw Balin as expendable.
Dain couldn't have made Balin stay at home. Balin was a higjhly respected Dwarf. A member of the royal family, and wealthy in his own right. Dain did not give Balin leave willingly, but IMO he could do nothing to stop him.

I agree with the Dain couldn't stop Balin part. But Balin wasn't some kind of suicidal maniac. If there was a well-documented and specific threat surely Shirley Dain would have told him? In this scenario, he doesn't just need to think Balin expendable, but actually wants him and his companions to get butchered. The dwarves can be greedy and stubborn, but I see no sign that they send each other to their deaths in this way.

Its only a theory, but not one I'm signing up to. The alternative that Dain warned Balin, but couldn't tell him enough to convince him of the threat sounds more plausible to me. Hey, but that's just me.

 

[Harad]

I'm not disputing that some knew of Balrogs enough to ID one (Legolas and Gandalf did); but we can as easily believe that Dain didn't know of them, as believe that he did.

My problem with Dain not knowing or not wanting to know, is that Dain was not an ignorant, parochial type. He was a King of Dwarves and well-integrated into the North of Middle Earth. He certainly had much converse with Men at Dale, and swore friendship with the Eagles, and was on good terms with Elrond. What his relationship with Thranduil was, I don't know. But Thranduil was less important vis a vis knowledge of the First Age than Elrond and the Rivendell Elves.

As Tar-Pal pointed out:

1980: The Witch-king comes to Mordor and there gathers the Nazgûl. A Balrog appears in Moria, and slays Durin VI.

This was more than 1000!!! years before the events in LOTR. (800 years before Dain sees Durin's Bane.) It just strains credulity that not one dwarf from the companions of Durin VI up to and including Dain Ironfoot could either put a name on Durin's Bane or describe it to someone who could. Or furthermore, that not one non-dwarf did any investigative work to themselves determine what Durin's Bane was.

The fact that Durin's Bane stayed put in Moria for at least 800 years, together with the "mysterious" 25-year silence of Balin, also calls into question the "surprise" on the Fellowship's part when, who should appear but Durin's Bane. Of course the book says they were surprised, but why?

The title of the thread is kind, since it allows for the possibilty of "Whistling Past the Graveyard." For 1000 years the assorted peoples of ME did so. Its possible. Look, in more recent times, at the 1970s decade of Disco.

 

[Elanor2]

Did gandalf know that Durin's Bane = Balrog?

If he did know, why is he surprised and says: "A Balrog...Now I understand..."?

Gandalf sentence is too short to give us a clear idea what was in his mind. It can be interpreted as:
"A Balrog... That's Durin's Bane... Now I understand... That's what happened and it's still happening in Moria".
or
"A Balrog... That's what I perceived through the door... Now I understand... the Balrog is still here and killed Balin's people".

Harad has a point here. For 800 years nobody has seen the Balrog. There is no way that Gandalf, Celeborn or any of the wise could have known that the Balrog was still in Moria. He might have left secretly at any time and gone in search of his real master Melkor. Or just found another secret place to wait for Melkor's return. Or gone in search of Sauron and offered his services, and it is now hidden in Mordor waiting to be used as a surprise weapon. Many possibilities.

Dain sees something in Moria 200 years earlier, but does not say it is a Balrog. Perhaps he only perceived something evil there and inmediately associated it with Durin's Bane. I find very significant that the dwarves did not flee, but took time to burn their dead. It looks like, in their minds, Durin's Bane is attached to Moria so much that they consider that it is no danger, except if you enter Moria. Like if Durin's Bane has reached the realm of legend.

Moria, is not completely abandoned. People use it somethimes as a passageway (Gandalf, Aragorn...). The only risks seem to be the orcs, not any Balrog: Even if Aragorn felt great evil in there, well, many evil things have happened to give Moria a haunted aura anyway. But not enough to give anyone the certitude that a Balrog is still lurking there.

Gandalf's suprise is not, for me, the final clue that indicates that nobody knew that Durin's Bane = Balrog. We need more clues.

 

[Mormegil]

VofK,

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
Mormegil,

Sorry about my cranky tone. I'm usually not as sarcastic as that.

However I AM often that argumentative!! Its no problem to post a theory, but a theory is there to be knocked down... So don't be surprised if some of us try!

You were very sarcastic. I am also argumentative.
I have no problem with you challenging my ideas. There is no clear cut answer to this mystery or else we wouldn't be discussing it.

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
I really can't take seriously the suggestion that Dain worries about an Elven take-over of Moria, by Thranduil or anyone else.

Why not? Thranduil led an army to Erebor in the hope of claiming the Smaug's hoarde. I'm pretty sure that Dain thinks that Thranduil would be capable of lusting after the only Mithril mine in ME.

Originally posted by Variag of Khand
I don't think Gandalf said those 'nameless things' were worse than the Balrog. A Balrog is an evil Maia: thats pretty damn bad. To make the threat seem worse than a Balrog he'd have to be going around saying: 'So you think a Balrog's bad, well check this'... Lets face it, a Balrog is off-putting enough for anyone. If someone doesn't say what the threat is, you don't instantly assume its going to be worse than one of the worst evils ever to roam Middle Earth. To say that by not naming it a Balrog he thinks everyone's going to think 'OMG, Dain won't say what it was. I thought it was just one of those puny Balrogs that noone has seen or heard of since the First Age, but it must be WAY WAY scarier than that' is a bit of stretch don't you think?

I have one word for you.......Ungolient.
One of the most ferocious and petrifying creatures ever to enter Arda. It took a group of Balrogs to free Morgoth from her wrath.
Ungolient is much scarier than a Balrog. What's to say that the unknown thing in Moria isn't a creature like Ungolient.

To use your quote.
Imagine Morgoth saying,'So you think a Balrog's bad, well check this'... before Ungolient steps foreward.

 

[Tar-Palantir]

Originally posted by Elanor2
Did gandalf know that Durin's Bane = Balrog?

If he did know, why is he surprised and says: "A Balrog...Now I understand..."?

Gandalf sentence is too short to give us a clear idea what was in his mind. It can be interpreted as:
"A Balrog... That's Durin's Bane... Now I understand... That's what happened and it's still happening in Moria".
or
"A Balrog... That's what I perceived through the door... Now I understand... the Balrog is still here and killed Balin's people".

Harad has a point here. For 800 years nobody has seen the Balrog. There is no way that Gandalf, Celeborn or any of the wise could have known that the Balrog was still in Moria. He might have left secretly at any time and gone in search of his real master Melkor. Or just found another secret place to wait for Melkor's return. Or gone in search of Sauron and offered his services, and it is now hidden in Mordor waiting to be used as a surprise weapon. Many possibilities.

Moria, is not completely abandoned. People use it somethimes as a passageway (Gandalf, Aragorn...). The only risks seem to be the orcs, not any Balrog: Even if Aragorn felt great evil in there, well, many evil things have happened to give Moria a haunted aura anyway. But not enough to give anyone the certitude that a Balrog is still lurking there.

Gandalf's suprise is not, for me, the final clue that indicates that nobody knew that Durin's Bane = Balrog. We need more clues.

I agree, Elanor2. Also, Gandalf's comment about being challenged through the door by something he's never felt before doesn't mean he couldn't have known that a Balrog had ever been in Moria. He's never gone head-to-head with one, so how could he be sure what a Balrog's spells would feel like?

 

[Greenwood]

From The Letters of JRR Tolkien, in a letter to Naomi Mitchison (letter 144) who had been reading page proofs of FOTR, in reference to the Balrog, Tolkien writes: "The Balrog is a survivor from The Silmarillion and the legends of the First Age. .... They were supposed to have all been destroyed in the overthrow of Thanggorodrim, ..... It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is -- and doubtless Gandalf." The elf referred to is clearly Legolas. So here you have Tolkien essentially stating that Gimli, though he identifies the creature as "Durin's Bane" does not know what it truly is, only Legolas and Gandalf recognize it as a Balrog. Therefore in Tolkien's conception of the story the dwarves either never reported Durin's Bane with enough detail to identify it as a Balrog, or if they did the identification was never passed back to the dwarves (or certainly not to Gimli). Is the argument now that the elves and Gandalf knew that Durin's Bane was a Balrog, but never told the dwarves? Why would they not tell the dwarves? If Gandalf knew that Durin's Bane was in reality a Balrog, wouldn't he on hearing about Balin's attempt to reopen Moria say something along the lines of: "Are you crazy! There is a Balrog in there! Let sleeping Balrogs lie!" (The same could be said for Elrond if he knew the identity of Durin's Bane. Perhaps even a "This is a job for Glorfindel! )

As for the argument that Balrogs were known from tales of the earlier ages, Aragorn, who Gandalf calls the greatest traveller of his Age (if I remember correctly) also does not recognize the creature they are confronted with as a Balrog. In addition to Tolkien's statement above, we have in FOTR when the Fellowship first meet Celeborn and Galadriel in Lothlorien and report Gandalf's fall, Aragorn says: "An evil of the Ancient World it seemed, such as I have never seen before. It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible." Not only has Aragorn not seen a Balrog before, but he clearly did not know what it was other than guessing it was an ancient evil. It is Legolas who identifies it to Celeborn and Galadriel: " 'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas". Also, if Gandalf knew that Durin's Bane was a Balrog, wouldn't he have clued in Aragorn? Thus all the evidence (both internal in the story and Tolkien's own statement) is that it was not known that Durin's Bane was a Balrog.

As to the argument that Gandalf and the wise should have guessed that Durin's Bane was a Balrog, why should they? All the Balrogs were thought to be destroyed ages ago ( ). If reports came in from the American West about slaughtered cattle, I don't think anyone would consider Tyrannosaurus rex as a possible culprit, no matter what any eyewitnesses might describe.

 

[Tar-Palantir]

Greenwood:
Okay, so both Gandalf & Legolas know a Balrog on sight (or feel). How? Neither has ever seen one before. They know it because of desciptions they've heard in the past. I find it hard to believe that, when he heard the story of what happened in Moria in TA 1980, that Gandalf didn't say to himself "hmmm.....walks like a duck, talks like a duck, kills like a duck....". I can only imagine that after the Balrog goes nuts in Moria that there was incredible destruction and, since there were no further incidences with the Balrog, that the Wise thought it was "imprisoned" again....or left. And, Gandalf went through Moria himself and saw no evidence.

As for Aragorn not knowing it was a Balrog before Lorien, that's not true. Both Legolas and Gandalf mentioned it by name in Moria.