Durin's Bane or Whistling Past the Graveyard

[Greenwood]

As for Aragorn not knowing it was a Balrog before Lorien, that's not true. Both Legolas and Gandalf mentioned it by name in Moria.

I did not say Aragorn did not know it was a Balrog until Lothlorien. Aragorn is reporting the events that took place in Moria and is clearly saying that when he saw the creature he did not know what it was at that time. I of course assume Aragorn heard Legolas and Gandalf identify the Balrog.

I find it hard to believe that, when he heard the story of what happened in Moria in TA 1980, that Gandalf didn't say to himself "hmmm.....walks like a duck, talks like a duck, kills like a duck....". I can only imagine that after the Balrog goes nuts in Moria that there was incredible destruction and, since there were no further incidences with the Balrog, that the Wise thought it was "imprisoned" again....or left.

You may find it hard to believe, but that is the way Tolkien wrote it. As for the Durin's Bane/Balrog having left Moria, is it likely that something so terrible that it could drive off the dwarves from their beloved city would be able to slip off quietly in the night without anyone in ME knowing about it. Yes, Gandalf and the wise could have thought Durin's Bane (whatever it was) could have gone back to sleep under the mountains, but it is unlikely that it had left Moria. The Watcher in the Water seems to have been an unknown terror, unknown even to Gandalf. This shows that not all terrors were known even to the wise. Durin's Bane could have been thought to be another of these unknown monsters.

 

[aragil]

TP- Well, if there were only 3-7 Balrogs ever, and two were accounted for by Ecthelion and Glorfindel during the fall of Gondolin, why would anybody expect a Balrog to have escaped the fall of Thangorodrim? It was ~1100 years into the Second Age before anyone realized that Sauron was growing in power, and it was nearly ~1700 years after the rise of the Necromancer that Gandalf found out that the Necromancer was actually Sauron. I guess that without the books it becomes much more difficult to identify the bad guys, no matter how many times you've heard the 'Lay of Luthien' or the 'Fall of Gondolin.' Point in fact- Aragorn has memorized the Lay of Luthien, and spent a large amount of time in Elrond's house at Rivendell where he has presumably heard of Papa Earendil's escape from Gondolin. He has heard of a Balrog, he does not recognize it when he sees it, and even after hearing the name from Legolas he still resorts to talking about it in descriptive terms rather than using its proper name. If Aragorn in all his learning doesn't seem to have a keen grasp on what it was, why should the Dwarves do any better. Balrogs seemed mainly concerned with killing Elves- Fingon, Feanor, and the Elves of Gondolin. They don't seem to be active against the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains, and the Dwarves of Khazad-dum had nothing to do with Beleriand. In fact, the elves of Lorien didn't even have a clue about what had been awoken, as evidenced by Celeborn's words after Legolas names the Balrog. Given that Sauron himself was able to operate incognito for thousands of years, why do people have such a problem with the Balrog also being unknown beyond the name of 'Durin's Bane'.

Why would Legolas recognize a Balrog on sight? Well, Thranduil was a Sindar of Beleriand first off. All of the elves of Beleriand were reasonably familiar with Balrogs, as Balrogs were more active during the first age, sort of the Black Riders of their day. At some point during his 3000 years of parentage Thranduil must have described it to his son. And Elves are unusually perceptive in these matters, more so than say men, dwarves or hobbits. As for Gandalf, he doesn't seem to recognize it until Legolas gives out the word. He is probably familiar with the concept of a Balrog- they are after all kindred spirits, beings who have existed longer than the earth itself.

 

[Harad]

Aragorn grew up in Rivendell. The World's Foremost Authority on Balrog's just happened to live there. Werent there any rousing get togethers around the fireplace swapping tales about what it was like to live and die in Gondolin?

No one seems to grasp that in the Third Age the destruction of the Dwarf City in Khazad-Dum must have been Big News. Wouldnt any of the non-Dwarf "guardians" of that Age be in the least bit interested to get to the bottom of HOW such a thing could happen? 800 years pass and the same "Durin's Bane" is identified again in the same place. Isn't it time to pay attention? 200 years pass and Balin goes missing. Three strikes and youre out...of excuses.

 

[Tar-Palantir]

You're Gandalf. The greatest Dwarf city in the world gets wiped out by....something. The Dwarves don't know what kind of creature it is, but you can be sure they know it looked like, fought like, etc...The description you hear sounds like a Balrog. Sure, it could be some "nameless thing", but it sounds like a Balrog . What are you gonna think? Even if you're not sold on Balrog, it's obviously something powerful. If you don't at least consider the possibility of a Balrog.....well, why wouldn't you?

Greenwood, I happen to agree with you that a Balrog could not have left Moria without anyone knowing (excluding the prescence of a cloaking device). My point is that it's (to me) more in Gandalf's spirit and character (along with the rest of the Wise and Eldar) that they should have equated Durin's Bane with the Balrog.

Anyway, I apologize for beating a dead Balrog I'm truly not trying to be argumentative, just trying to find a way to justify something that doesn't make sense.

 

[aragil]

The only way this doesn't make sense is if you apply your outside knowledge to the World that Tolkien created. In Tolkien's world Sauron was twice able to go incognito for thousands of years without 'the wise' figuring out who he was. In Tolkien's world 'the wise' also don't know what Durin's Bane is. This becomes especially confounding when you take Harad's view that Durin's Bane went around leaving little calling cards (You've just been whipped by the Balrog of Moria. Have a nice day) on each dwarven corpse. But whether or not it's confusing to us doesn't matter. In Tolkien's world people didn't know the identity of Durin's Bane or the Necromancer until Gandalf stuck his bristly brows into places to check it out. If you're angry about this aspect of Tolkien's world, then call up Dionne W. and give Tolkien an earful.

 

[Harad]

There's a logical disconnect here.

WE ALL AGREE THAT IN THE STORY NO ONE KNEW IT WAS A BALROG. THATS A GIVEN.

The discussion, feeble as it is, concentrates on "does it make sense" that no one knew?

And who in Eru's name is Dionne W?

 

[Greenwood]

The description you hear sounds like a Balrog. Sure, it could be some "nameless thing", but it sounds like a Balrog .

But you don't know that the dwarves ever gave anyone a description of Durin's Bane. You don't even know if any dwarve who had a "up close and personal" encounter with Durin's Bane (at least close enough for a description) ever survived the encounter. If whole sections of Moria were being wiped out and a shadow of fear spread in front of Durin's Bane, I can see the dwarves that are left "bugging out" without insisting on actually getting a look at whatever is responsible. Perhaps the only descriptions were vague; enough for Dain to connect a shadowy terror inside the gates of Moria with Durin's Bane, but not enough for the Wise to identify it. And as mentioned already, the Wise thought all Balrog's were gone ages before. Why would they think of one as a possibility? And as for the argument that none of the Wise showed any interest in identifying Durin's Bane, how do we know they didn't? Gandalf says he has been in Moria before, but doesn't say why. Perhaps it was to investigate the identity of Durin's Bane just as he entered Dol Guldur to identify the Necromancer as Sauron. Unlike his investigation of Dol Guldur, his foray into Moria did not lead to an identification. Perhaps his report to Elrond and company was: "No sign of Durin's Bane, whatever it was. Let's hope it has gone to sleep again under the mountains." As for Balin's twenty-five year silence, there are certainly enough orcs around to account for it without invoking the return of Durin's Bane as a necessity to explain it. I don't have my copy of FOTR handy, but I don't remember the record book of Balin's company in Moria mentioning Durin's Bane, just orcs.

[Later edit: I see Aragil and Harad were busy while I was typing. Lots of us have given reasons why the story as Tolkien wrote it makes sense internally.]

 

[Eonwe]

Bitter that I am, I am reminded of a thread that was related to this, that generated a few hundred posts in 48 hours, that dealt with what I think is the more important question:

Even if he didn't know it was a Balrog, he still knew it was something really nasty, Aragorn warns him against it personally, and yet he still leads the Fellowship through with the One Ring.

Why?

But the thread was deleted.

I'm so bitter and I can't let go.

aragil-san:

"If Aragorn in all his learning doesn't seem to have a keen grasp on what it was, why should the Dwarves do any better."

Best reply to the question I've seen yet.

 

[Tar-Palantir]

Uncle!!!! Sheesh......I'm not entirely sold on the fact that no one knew that a Balrog had ever been in Moria, but let's let it go. It's either stubborness on my part (probably) or the whole world's crazy and I'm the only sane one (and no! we don't need to start a poll on that!)

I'm not angry with Tolkien.....and I have no desire to call Dionne (or Ms Cleo, for that matter) to ask him about it.

 

[Harad]

`I fear he had ill tidings to record in a fair hand,' said Gandalf. 'The first clear word is sorrow, but the rest of the line is lost, unless it ends in estre. Yes, it must be yestre followed by day being the tenth of novembre Balin lord of Moria fell in Dimrill Dale. He went alone to look in Mirror mere. an orc shot him from behind a stone. we slew the orc, hut many more ... up from east up the Silverlode. The remainder of the page is so blurred that I can hardly make anything out, but I think I can read we have barred the gates, and then can hold them long if, and then perhaps horrible and suffer. Poor Balin! He seems to have kept the title that he took for less than five years. I wonder what happened afterwards; but there is no time to puzzle out the last few pages. Here is the last page of all.' He paused and sighed.
`It is grim reading,' he said. 'I fear their end was cruel. Listen! We cannot get out. We cannot get out. They have taken the Bridge and second hall. Frár and Lóni and Náli fell there. Then there are four lines smeared so that I can only read went 5 days ago. The last lines run the pool is up to the wall at Westgate. The Watcher in the Water took Óin. We cannot get out. The end comes, and then drums, drums in the deep. I wonder what that means. The last thing written is in a trailing scrawl of elf-letters: they are coming. There is nothing more.' Gandalf paused and stood in silent thought.
A sudden dread and a horror of the chamber fell on the Company. `We cannot get out,' muttered Gimli. 'It was well for us that the pool had sunk a little, and that the Watcher was sleeping down at the southern end.'

There isnt much to go on, but the drums may have been associated with DB.

Aragorn may not have known anything about a Balrog but he was only in his 90s. The Dwarves had 1000 years to puzzle it out.

The Balrog was a distinctive creature. I dont believe it was easily mistaken for something else. To think that there were no surving Dwarf witness from an entire City strains credulity. Credulity is strained in my book, but others are welcome to keep whistling.

 

[Landroval]

Originally posted by Harad


The Balrog was a distinctive creature. I dont believe it was easily mistaken for something else. To think that there were no surving Dwarf witness from an entire City strains credulity. Credulity is strained in my book, but others are welcome to keep whistling.

Yes, Harad, this to me is the one big hole. Even assuming that the Dwarves did not recognize the Balrog to put a name on it, some survivor should have described it well enough to develop a lasting tale that would have been recognized by someone in the intervening years.

So JRRT is a fallible human after all... I'll get over it.

 

[Harad]

Thanks Landroval,

I think its an entertaining book as well. That's why I am interested. The questions I and others raise are just brain tweasers: perhaps there are solutions I didnt think of, perhaps not. I read all the replying posts to see.

In either case I already had and continue to have enjoyment from the story. I am sorry if people feel threatened or personally attacked by the academic points that I raise. It is an interesting phenomenom, aint it? Maybe theres enuf for a masters thesis in internet posting psychology?

 

[Greenwood]

Even assuming that the Dwarves did not recognize the Balrog to put a name on it, some survivor should have described it well enough to develop a lasting tale that would have been recognized by someone in the intervening years.

You can say that "some survivor should have described it well enough to develop a lasting tale that would have been recognized by someone in the intervening years", but the evidence from the novel is that no one did.

There isnt much to go on, but the drums may have been associated with DB.

After Gandalf's first encounter with the Balrog at the shut door he is asked if he met the drummer and he says he doesn't know. We have no positive proof that the drums go with the Balrog. Unless there is a description out there of Balrogs as fiery, whip-wielding First Age Buddy Richs.

The Balrog was a distinctive creature. I dont believe it was easily mistaken for something else. To think that there were no surving Dwarf witness from an entire City strains credulity.

Clearly there are survivors from Moria. There is no evidence that any of those survivors had first hand encounters with Durin's Bane. Or perhaps the terror of it left them jibbering idiots unable to give a clear description. Trauma victims are notoriously bad witnesses.

 

[Harad]

but the evidence from the novel is that no one did.

My Novel:

There are 10 people in a small room. Another man walks in and vomits on the floor. The room is brightly lit, the 10 people are sighted, awake, and of average intelligence. None of the 10 people ever mention the incident for the rest of their lives.

End of My Novel.

Is there evidence that the "vomit" incident was observed? Does My Novel make sense?

 

[aragil]

Harad- Dionne W is Dionne Warwick, the only person I know of who could find out what Tolkien was thinking the Burning Enigma of Moria (DW would be a better authority than CT, in my opinion). Of all the posters on these boards I thought you'd be the first to catch a pop-culture ref. I'm so very disappointed.
Your novel does make sense internally. I can give plenty of reasons why your characters wouldn't ever mention it again- chiefly that it was so unpleasant that they didn't want to think of it. If, hundreds of years later someone was to jump into the middle of your room, they would be upset that someone had not warned them about what had previously transpired. However, if they knew that something bad had happened in there, so bad that the 10 had never spoken of it again, then we'd have to question the intelligence of the person jumping into the room, not the intelligence of the ten or of you for writing the incident.

Greenwood- I think of the Balrogs as more similar to Gene Kruppa.

 

[Bucky]

Harad:

My Novel:

If you bang your head against a brick wall enough times, will the wall finally collapse?

End of Novel?

Actually, it's more of a riddle......

Greenwood's been making lots of sense here (Aragil too), so there isn't much to add but this:

>>>He's (Gandalf) never gone head-to-head
with one, so how could he be sure what a Balrog's spells would feel like?

>>>Greenwood:
Okay, so both Gandalf & Legolas know a Balrog on sight (or feel). How?
Neither has ever seen one before. They know it because of desciptions
they've heard in the past.

1. Who says Legolas wasn't alive in the First Age in Beleriand?
Is there any proof at all to when he was born?
I seem to recall that we all just assume he's born after that from the 'Who's Older' thread....

2. Who says Gandalf never saw or met a Balrog before?
What about the countless battles between Melkor & the Valar before the Elves awoke?
Or, who says Olorin was not in The Host of the West that overthrew Morgoth at the end of the 1st Age?

 

[Harad]

If you had said Ms Clio I would have known. Who said I was infallible?

My Novel makes sense. I am not surprised. The first question however was:

Is there evidence that the "vomit" incident was observed?

Trying in my modest way to apply Greenwood reasoning, the answer is "no."

I would wonder, if in book 2 of My Novel, called "The Too Novel," someone wanted to enter The Room, why they wouldnt have asked one of The Ten, "what happened in that room?" before stepping in it.

 

[aragil]

Ms. Clio is only weird because of her commercials. Dionne has additional weirdness because she has jeapordized an established singing career with her psychic weirdness. This obviously makes her more qualified to get in touch with Tolkien's departed spirit, as all spirits are drawn to the weirdness of the living.
To extend your novel, let's imagine that the room in question is home to the world's only slip and slide. Now let's imagine that long after the vomit incident (but still before in janitorial effort) the prospective jumper speaks with one of the ten and says:
'I'd like to try the slip and slide.'
The former witness (we'll call him Dain) responds:
'You should not enter the slip and slide room. Only I have looked through the shadow of the door. Beyond the shadow lies a stench that I cannot describe. Some janitorial power other than ours must come before we can again ride the slip and slide.'
To which the jumper (we'll call him Balin) replies:
'But it's the only slip and slide. Any stench must have already left the room, as nobody who has gone in lately has smelled it. I'm going to go jump right in the center of the room, and just see if you can stop me.'
Later on a janitor(we'll call them Gandalf) comes in to the room, sees the results of Balin's incident, and says:
'Oh. Vomit. Now it all makes sense.'
Now this would be an entertaining (if rather short) novel and sequel. Having read it, I wouldn't ask you why Dain wasn't more explicit in his warning, or why Gandalf didn't know what to expect upon entering the room. I would certainly question Balin's decision, but I wouldn't say that there was a plot hole in your novel or it's sequel.

If you want your novel to be in line with Greenwood's quote then you'll have to allow the vomit to have the capability and desire to destroy all possible eye witnesses. Dain could still identify the vomit by the stench from outside the room. Still, a lot of things smell bad, and it might not be until the janitor goes in and cleans up the mess that your novel world learns what was in the room.

 

[Greenwood]

My Novel:

There are 10 people in a small room. Another man walks in and vomits on the floor. The room is brightly lit, the 10 people are sighted, awake, and of average intelligence. None of the 10 people ever mention the incident for the rest of their lives.

End of My Novel.

Is there evidence that the "vomit" incident was observed? Does My Novel make sense?

First reaction: don't expect a bestseller.

Are you asking for reasons that none of the ten people ever mention the incident? Here are a few: 1) Your small room is the cabin of a ship at sea in a violent storm and no one things anything special of your man being seasick. 2) Your novel is set in ancient Rome and the people are in a Vomitorium at a Roman banquet and when Ceasar entered he missed the bucket and no one wants to mention it. 3) It is a room off the cafeteria of a school I once attended and people vomiting was nothing unusual.

 

[Greenwood]

Aragil has a nasty habit of posting while I am typing. It is even worse when his posts are more entertaining than mine.