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Harad
Guest
Its the "I'm All-Right Jack" Elves, is it?
Some neighbors and allies! When me and my City are wiped out, they check to make sure they're not affected, then go about their business, whistling. "Oh its those crazy dwarves again with their deep delving. Serves them right." No wonder the Elves were always on the brink of extinction.
1000 years later it comes back to bite them or their plans, since Gandalf takes a header. But, as we know, even that was a good thing, since he got to turn in his dingy grey duds for some shiny white ones.
And..as far as Gandalf entering Moria which Greenwood brought up again...Balin hadnt been heard from for 25 years...time to prick up your ears???
Some neighbors and allies! When me and my City are wiped out, they check to make sure they're not affected, then go about their business, whistling. "Oh its those crazy dwarves again with their deep delving. Serves them right." No wonder the Elves were always on the brink of extinction.
1000 years later it comes back to bite them or their plans, since Gandalf takes a header. But, as we know, even that was a good thing, since he got to turn in his dingy grey duds for some shiny white ones.
And..as far as Gandalf entering Moria which Greenwood brought up again...Balin hadnt been heard from for 25 years...time to prick up your ears???
Aragil
You may have beaten me through the ether with your last post, but I used "Let sleeping Balrogs lie" yesterday so I am claiming dibs on "Let sleeping Durin's Bane's lie" as a direct descendent.
Harad
Elves and dwarves don't exactly have a history of being bosum chums.
Gandalf is not 100% certain that Balin & crew are dead. Even if they are, they may have just been done in by orcs. I doubt that Gandalf had any real concerns about dealing with a bunch of pesky orcs.
You may have beaten me through the ether with your last post, but I used "Let sleeping Balrogs lie" yesterday so I am claiming dibs on "Let sleeping Durin's Bane's lie" as a direct descendent.
Harad
Elves and dwarves don't exactly have a history of being bosum chums.
Gandalf is not 100% certain that Balin & crew are dead. Even if they are, they may have just been done in by orcs. I doubt that Gandalf had any real concerns about dealing with a bunch of pesky orcs.
Well, now we get down to timing. Do we know if Celeborn and Galadriel sent invstigative elves to Moria? No. We only know that if Celeborn and Galadriel sent help to the Dwarves, it failed to 1)help the dwarves; 2) uncover the nature of Durin's Bane.
Could this have happened in the years after the uncovering of the Balrog but before the abandonment of the city? Yes, in a number of ways: all elven help killed, all elven help scared back out, etc. There, now elves can be reinstated in the 'friendly neighbor' club.
Could this have happened in the years after the uncovering of the Balrog but before the abandonment of the city? Yes, in a number of ways: all elven help killed, all elven help scared back out, etc. There, now elves can be reinstated in the 'friendly neighbor' club.
>>> The issue is "does it make any sense that NO ONE KNEW IT
WAS A BALROG?"
As previously stated:
THEY WERE ALL THOUGHT DESTROYED AT THE END OF THE FIRST AGE!!!!!!!!
Harad:
It's just those stupid High Elves & Istari messing things up again.
Why weren't they at the Withered Heath destroying Dragon Eggs?
And, why didn't they investigate what was hiding in that cave near Cirith Ungol?
After all, they had 2000+ years to do that.
You shoulda named yourself Illuvator.
Or Bill Higgins.......
WAS A BALROG?"
As previously stated:
THEY WERE ALL THOUGHT DESTROYED AT THE END OF THE FIRST AGE!!!!!!!!
Harad:
It's just those stupid High Elves & Istari messing things up again.
Why weren't they at the Withered Heath destroying Dragon Eggs?
And, why didn't they investigate what was hiding in that cave near Cirith Ungol?
After all, they had 2000+ years to do that.
You shoulda named yourself Illuvator.
Or Bill Higgins.......
oooh wait. Logic bites itself like a snake bites its tail.
Moria has only one exit and one entrance that we know of. Easily guarded (easier than the Gap). So the Balrog just had to guard the exits and all the dwarves would be killed and never get out to tell anyone! Just run and put a holding spell on the door to Hollin, then run back to the East exit and block the door! Dwarves are tasty! Get 'em while they're hot!
That was easy.
Moria has only one exit and one entrance that we know of. Easily guarded (easier than the Gap). So the Balrog just had to guard the exits and all the dwarves would be killed and never get out to tell anyone! Just run and put a holding spell on the door to Hollin, then run back to the East exit and block the door! Dwarves are tasty! Get 'em while they're hot!
That was easy.
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Harad
Guest
If the Elves didnt give a Rats Tuchus, then why bother with the Ring at all. Just pack your speed boats and head West.
Dwarves and Elves werent usually chummy, but Moria and Lorien apparently got along. If Dwarves got hammered in the Iron Mountains, then maybe Lorien shouldn't care, but Moria was a bit close for comfort. If I live in Cleveland and Cincinatti disappears I might be happy for a while, but I also would want to find out why.
They didnt care.
More whistling. Was there an accurate count of live vs. dead balrogs. I don't think so.
Dwarves and Elves werent usually chummy, but Moria and Lorien apparently got along. If Dwarves got hammered in the Iron Mountains, then maybe Lorien shouldn't care, but Moria was a bit close for comfort. If I live in Cleveland and Cincinatti disappears I might be happy for a while, but I also would want to find out why.
They didnt care.
More whistling. Was there an accurate count of live vs. dead balrogs. I don't think so.
Snaga
The Usual Suspect
- Joined
- Feb 11, 2002
- Messages
- 2,257
Why do you think that Moria and Lorien got on OK? I've seen nothing to indicate that.
Moria and Hollin got on OK, but the dwarves shut the doors when Sauron trashed Eregion. I wonder if that's another reason why Celeborn is so bitter (apart from that he was at the Fall of Doriath too). Maybe he thinks 'so someone's trashed Moria, well Moria didn't help Hollin so why should I care'.
C'mon, someone tell me that Celeborn's a great bloke and wouldn't be so petty!
Let face it: the dwarves and the orcs of the misty mountains fought right on his doorstep, and he never lifted a finger. If he had, he could have taken a look with Dain, and everything changes.
Moria and Hollin got on OK, but the dwarves shut the doors when Sauron trashed Eregion. I wonder if that's another reason why Celeborn is so bitter (apart from that he was at the Fall of Doriath too). Maybe he thinks 'so someone's trashed Moria, well Moria didn't help Hollin so why should I care'.
C'mon, someone tell me that Celeborn's a great bloke and wouldn't be so petty!
Let face it: the dwarves and the orcs of the misty mountains fought right on his doorstep, and he never lifted a finger. If he had, he could have taken a look with Dain, and everything changes.
Quote by Tolkien, in Morgoth's Ring (paraphrased for current lack of said volume): There shouldn't be thought to have ever been more than 3-7 Balrogs
Number killed by Glorfindel: 1
Number killed by Glorfindel's partner in crime, Ecthelion: 1
Number remaining for final battle of 1st age: 1-5
If the Forces of good had done something sufficiently drastic to the Balrog during the final battle (i.e. thrown him from Thangorodrim into the Misty Mountains) then our buddy would be accounted for without the necessity of counting the body (forget that this assumption would be wrong). I'd say that with the relatively few Balrogs that could have participated in the battle, the Valar probably did think that they had accounted for all of them.
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Harad
Guest
How to identify a Balrog:
1. See the balrog and live. The corollary is that you have to know what a balrog looks like. Elves know, Aragorn knows, in any reasonable world Dwarves know. Hobbits...they dont know.
2. Figger that its the only thing that can accomplish that deed--destroy a Dwarf City. Say...maybe it aint. THEN, being a nosy neighbor, I want to find out what did destroy the Dwarf City.
3. Not believe the propaganda that ALL BALROGS ARE DEAD (Maia, notwithstanding) and put 2+2=4. If it wasnt a Balrog, it was the moral equivalent of a Balrog.
1. See the balrog and live. The corollary is that you have to know what a balrog looks like. Elves know, Aragorn knows, in any reasonable world Dwarves know. Hobbits...they dont know.
2. Figger that its the only thing that can accomplish that deed--destroy a Dwarf City. Say...maybe it aint. THEN, being a nosy neighbor, I want to find out what did destroy the Dwarf City.
3. Not believe the propaganda that ALL BALROGS ARE DEAD (Maia, notwithstanding) and put 2+2=4. If it wasnt a Balrog, it was the moral equivalent of a Balrog.
But, Aragorn did not know what a Balrog looked like as shown by his statement to Celeborn: "An evil of the Ancient World it seemed, such as I have never seen before. It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible." Also, clearly the dwarves did not know what a Balrog was.
But, as you say maybe there are various things that can destroy a dwarve city. Since this thing, Durin's Bane, shows absolutely no interest in leaving its conquered underground city, in fact, the evidence is that it is some sort of subterranean monster native to the deep underground that the dwarves were foolish enough to disturb, why go looking for trouble by investigating it. Remember this is a world of magic with various terrible things in it. If there is a terror that shows no interest in coming out to you, why go in after it. Or maybe, as Aragil suggested, the elves did send in scouts and none returned. How many do you send and lose? At what point do your scouts say, "Hey King Celeborn! You are so interested you go look!"
But you don't have 2 + 2. You have 0 + 0 = 0. Whatever is in Moria is big, nasty and foul-tempered. I would leave it alone.
I am afraid, Harad, you are the one doing all the whistling.
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Harad
Guest
I am glad that you are not making real-world decisions, Greenwood. Just as I'd rather not live in the world run by such geniuses that would let the neighboring city be wiped out, without finding out why.
"Whistling" is not finding out. I am not a whistler.
Not only did the Balrog bite Gandalf 1000 years later but the whole strategic situation in ME changed with the loss of Moria. East and West of the mountains were cutoff except for long go-arounds.
Don't you get it? You are defending the downward trend of the strategic situation in ME. By the time the Elves were through, they were living in isolated enclaves, surrounded by enemies. Its lucky that Men were there to bail them out.
............
"Harad's Bane" As if.
That's funny. The dyspeptic dung beetle bothers the Oliphaunt? There isn't a smilie with big enuf teeth for that. Try posting an IDEA for once, instead of your peashooter barrage of insults.
"Whistling" is not finding out. I am not a whistler.
Not only did the Balrog bite Gandalf 1000 years later but the whole strategic situation in ME changed with the loss of Moria. East and West of the mountains were cutoff except for long go-arounds.
Don't you get it? You are defending the downward trend of the strategic situation in ME. By the time the Elves were through, they were living in isolated enclaves, surrounded by enemies. Its lucky that Men were there to bail them out.
............
"Harad's Bane" As if.
That's funny. The dyspeptic dung beetle bothers the Oliphaunt? There isn't a smilie with big enuf teeth for that. Try posting an IDEA for once, instead of your peashooter barrage of insults.
>>>2. Figger that its the only thing that can accomplish that deed--destroy a
Dwarf City. Say...maybe it aint. THEN, being a nosy neighbor, I want to find
out what did destroy the Dwarf City.
Smaug destroyed a Dwarf city (Erebor) as much as the Balrog destroyed Moria.
>>>3. Not believe the propaganda that ALL BALROGS ARE DEAD
Who was in charge of the The Host of the West's/The Valar's propaganda machine ?
James Carvelle?
Joseph Goebbels?
Gary Condit?
Dwarf City. Say...maybe it aint. THEN, being a nosy neighbor, I want to find
out what did destroy the Dwarf City.
Smaug destroyed a Dwarf city (Erebor) as much as the Balrog destroyed Moria.
>>>3. Not believe the propaganda that ALL BALROGS ARE DEAD
Who was in charge of the The Host of the West's/The Valar's propaganda machine ?
James Carvelle?
Joseph Goebbels?
Gary Condit?
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Harad
Guest
Great example of ANOTHER thing I would ignore. Not.
The propagandists youre thinking of are James Baker and Newt Gingrich? If youre gonna go with Goebbels, at least stay to the same side of center.
That's a dyspeptic SCARAB to you, pal!
I'll try to come up with an "idea" for you to stomp on tomorrow, Harad; stay tuned and see if you can recognize one when you read it. For the nonce will just say, before going to bed, that it's nice to see you haven't lost your sense of humor at least!
I can probably scrape the mighty pachyderm's poo off my carapace, I suppose, but then I'm left in a quandary: should I use it to feed and fertilize trees, which is always a fine thing to an alda-nil's mind, especially given the fecund richness of this particular leaving; or should I rather "consider the source" of the steaming pile and so, realizing its genuine value, bequeath it instead to the Michel Delving Museum? Samwise can cherish it there, as a reminder of his encounter with the horrid great beast from the South in the groves of Ithilien, or spread it on the roots of his mallornif he wants to.
I'll try to come up with an "idea" for you to stomp on tomorrow, Harad; stay tuned and see if you can recognize one when you read it. For the nonce will just say, before going to bed, that it's nice to see you haven't lost your sense of humor at least!
I can probably scrape the mighty pachyderm's poo off my carapace, I suppose, but then I'm left in a quandary: should I use it to feed and fertilize trees, which is always a fine thing to an alda-nil's mind, especially given the fecund richness of this particular leaving; or should I rather "consider the source" of the steaming pile and so, realizing its genuine value, bequeath it instead to the Michel Delving Museum? Samwise can cherish it there, as a reminder of his encounter with the horrid great beast from the South in the groves of Ithilien, or spread it on the roots of his mallornif he wants to.
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Harad
Guest
Always happy to contribute to your raison d'etre.
Harad
As a number of us have pointed out, you have no proof that there were no efforts to identify Durin's Bane. Unsuccessful efforts may have been made, we don't know. The only thing that would satisfy you is if when the Fellowship arrived in Lothlorien and met with Celeborn and Galadriel, Celeborn had said: "Damn! A Balrog! So that's what happened to all my private investigators! I knew I should have sent Glorfindel!" Instead, all we have is the evidence that no one knew what Durin's Bane was.
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Harad
Guest
Well...that's a step in the right direction. Rather than pooh-poohing the need to take any action at all, now you suggest, that the rest of ME, and specifically the Elves of Lorien--may have taken action. But we have no proof.
Too bad. Unfortunately for your current argument, Occam's razor says that the absence of something implies its absence--not its presence.
I am willing to agree that the lack of interest in Durin's Bane on the part of the Elves and Istari was just another mistake in their LONG line of mistakes. I am not willing to concede that the ancient and always revenge-minded dwarves did not SENSIBLY know and could not find out what Durin's Bane was.
