Durin's Bane or Whistling Past the Graveyard

[Greenwood]

Well...that's a step in the right direction. Rather than pooh-poohing the need to take any action at all, now you suggest, that the rest of ME, and specifically the Elves of Lorien--may have taken action.

No, people had already said that investigations might have been made, this is nothing new. Aragil and I both suggested the possiblity a day or two ago. I specifically said that Gandalf and/or Aragorn, both of whom say they have entered Moria before, may have been investigating Durin's Bane, without success.

Unfortunately for your current argument, Occam's razor says that the absence of something implies its absence--not its presence.

Occam's Razor says no such thing. It says the simplest explanation is usually the best. It does not guarantee that it is correct, nor does it say anything about the absence of something proving its absence.

As for the dwarves, they had all the information they needed. Durin's Bane was Durin's Bane -- a nasty, terror that they could not defeat. You keep trying to apply real world logic to a magical world. Big, nasty creatures occurred in Middle-earth. I didn't see any reports in LOTR about investigators being dispatched to find out exactly what kind of creature the Watcher in the Water was. Why hasn't old Tom Bombadil done something about nasty Old Man Willow who seems to have a penchant for giving Tom's Old Forest a bad reputation? Why haven't Gandalf and Aragorn done something about those Barrow-wights haunting Aragorn's ancestoral burial mounds? Why hasn't Legolas' dad used a big can of insecticide on those spiders in Mirkwood? Why didn't Elrond and sons clear the orcs out of the Misty Mountains after the orcs did unspeakable things to Elrond's wife? What about good old Shelob? Why didn't the kings of Rohan hire an exorcist to clear out the Paths of the Dead and give them a short-cut to the sea? A lot of Middle-earth was a scary place.

 

[Harad]

Occam's Razor says no such thing. It says the simplest explanation is usually the best.

That is right. So we are left with the choice:

1. the absence of something implies its absence
2. the absence of something implies its presence

Which do YOU think is simpler?????????????????

Those other items you mention, spiders in Mirkwood being the most ridiculous, did not result in the Destruction of a Dwarf City with perhaps, 10000s live lost from an allied people, and the deterioration of the strategic situation in Middle Earth.

 

[Bucky]

>>>Well...that's a step in the right direction. Rather than pooh-poohing the need
to take any action at all, now you suggest, that the rest of ME, and
specifically the Elves of Lorien--may have taken action. But we have no
proof.

Well, let's see....

The Lord of Lorien is Celeborn.
He hasn't had any interaction with Dwarves for an Age or two.
Why would he care if some subteranean monster (remember, no Balrogs thought living) decides to run those stinkin' Dwarves out of Moria if that monster decides to stay in Moria?

He was probably thinking "Good, serves 'em right, after trying to steal Cuz's (Thingol) Silmarill."

 

[Harad]

Nice to jump in and ignore a few previous posts. Galadriel, the real power behind the throne, went to Lorien in part because of the Dwarves of Moria. She maintained relations with them.

Furthermore the result of Lorien's neglect of Moria was not benign. Rather it was the deteroriation of the strategic position of the Elves in ME.

If you want to admit that this was another mistake in the LONG list of Elves' mistakes, then we have an area of agreement.

 

[Bucky]

>>>

If you want to admit that this was another mistake in the LONG list of Elves'
mistakes, then we have an area of agreement.


What's next?
It's all Illuvator's fault?

Galadriel obviously had a greater power being a High Elf. Tolkien calls her the 'greatest' of the Eldar still in ME. But, she herself refers to Celeborn as 'the Lord of the Galadrim' & 'wisest of the Elves of ME' when they first meet the Fellowship.

And, once again, 'The History of Galadriel & Celeborn' in UT is a very unreliable source for information on when & what Galadriel & Celeborn did. Anything like 'they kept contact with the Dwarves of Moria' or 'they ruled Eregion' must be taken as unsettled from an historic perspective on ME unless it is clearly stated elsewhere as fact since so much of it is at odds with published works of Tolkien.

 

[Harad]

Unfortunately UT is the ONLY source, so you accept it or you dont discuss the issue. Moria was the neighbor to Lorien--that's geography.

What's next? It's all Illuvator's fault?

An Elf apologist? Its a testament to JRRT that his "heros and heroines" are so flawed. That makes it a complex literary endeavor. Don't get all bent out of shape when I point out the obvious.

 

[Bucky]

It's not the 'pointing out' of the flaws, it's the assertation that they should have done everything perfectly (by your standard).....

Some times, things just happen or unfold in a way that makes it nobody's fault.

There isn't always a Neville Chamberlain waving a piece of paper saying "I believe it is peace in our time."

Wait, I can just see Eonwe after the breaking of Thangorodrim saying to the Eldar & Edain "I believe it is the end of Balrogs in our time"......

 

[Harad]

There isn't always a Neville Chamberlain waving a piece of paper saying "I believe it is peace in our time.

I am not sure whether you are apologizing for him as well.

Since I have the benefit of hindsight plus an outrageously clear head, I feel compelled to offer improvements on the characters actions. For example I would have recommended that Hamlet make a decision already...or Feanor not be so hard-headed about those Sils. Still, as I said, those are the things that make it a good story.

Since I started the thread with a title that allows the characters to be flawed and make mistakes, I don't know why you need to defend them so vigorously. Its clear they did not act correctly, to their own misfortune.

 

[Bucky]

What misfortune?

Gandalf dies & is returned as a new & improved version.

 

[Greenwood]

Its clear they did not act correctly

It is not clear. That is your opinion. You are starting to sound like Thorin complaining about Arwen in the movie.

 

[Harad]

I have heard that insult before. Makes as much sense now as then.

So YOU dont think the strategic situation in ME deteriorated after Moria fell? I suppose that was all part of the Elves far-seeing plan to promote Gandalf.

If I say clearly and others' vision is cloudy doesnt warrant such a vile insult.

 

[aragil]

The strategic situation in Middle-Earth was on a long decline from the second the first age ended. There were punctuated moments of resurgence (the most notable being when that evil Isildur be-fingered Sauron), but on the whole Middle-Earth in TA 1970 (just before mirromeregate) was far worse off than in SA 1. I would not point to the fall of Khazad-dum as the moment that things went south (no offense meant to Southrons or Southern Continents). The whole history of the Elves is one of failing, so sure we can say that they made mistakes. On the other hand, Tolkien's Illuvatar intended that the Elves should fade, and so it seems that Tolkien was being entirely consistent within his world by having the Elves make these 'mistakes' and then fade.
Who is to say that the Dwarven city would have stood up to the Uruks sent in by Sauron if the Balrog had been dispatched? Who's to say that the Balrog could be dispatched by someone other than Gandalf? We throw around the name Glorfindel, but is there any indication that he was willing to throw his life away again fighting a Balrog, and this time to help Dwarves? Had the wise discovered the nature of Durin's Bane, what indication is there that they would have been able to destroy it? The Eldar knew where the Balrogs were living throughout the First Age, but where never able to put an end to them without the help of the Valar. Perhaps in seeking to kill the Balrog they would have driven it into Dol Guldur, where it would have allied with the Necromancer and an up-and-coming Smaug to bring all of Middle-Earth under the shadow. Good thing the wise knew what they were doing, Mr. Clear-headed!

 

[Harad]

I agree that the Elves made many more mistakes than Moria. The Mother of All Mistakes was that after the lessons of the First Age, they soon fell into the trap of the former servant of their Great Enemy.

But dont underestimate the loss of Moria. Not only was a potential STRONG ally removed--a Dwarf City can provide lots of impressive troops--but also the Mines were left to become base for Sauron, and they effectively isolated the East-West communication and forces of the Elves.

How many were waylaid in that journey including:

Celebrían, journeying to Lórien, is waylaid in the Redhorn Pass, and receives a poisoned wound.

shortly after Sauron begins to people Moria with his creatures.

Lastly and how could you forget? Moria becomes the breeding stock for the Uruk Hai.

Eureka! I now understand! You support the fall of Moria, the peopling of Moria with Orcs, the breeding of Orcs into Uruk-Hai by Saruman--all to provide the opportunity for limitless scholarly posts in the U v.U-H thread. You and your twin should be ashamed.

 

[Aldanil]

A pretty astonishing assertion ("you and your twin should be ashamed") from one who apparently lacks the capacity to be embarrassed, intellectually or otherwise.

 

[Greenwood]

Quote by Harad
Eureka! I now understand! You support the fall of Moria, the peopling of Moria with Orcs, the breeding of Orcs into Uruk-Hai by Saruman--all to provide the opportunity for limitless scholarly posts in the U v.U-H thread. You and your twin should be ashamed.

Aragil

Looks like Harad has figured us out.

 

[Harad]

The Balrog is a survivor from the Silmarillion and the legends of the First Age. So is Shelob. The Balrogs, of whom the whips were the chief weapons, were primeval spirits of destroying fire, chief servants of the primeval Dark Power of the First Age. They were supposed to have been all destroyed in the overthrow of Thangorodrim, his fortress in the North. But it is here found (there is usually a hang-over especially of evil from one age to another) that one had escaped and taken refuge under the mountains of Hithaeglin (the Misty Mountains). It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is - and doubtless Gandalf.

From Letter #144

So Dain wouldn't know but and is furthermore prohibited from discussing it with the Elf and Gandalf. The Elf and Gandalf would know but "whistle."

 

[Greenwood]

Harad

I posted quotes from this letter six days ago:

Quote by Greenwood on March 6
From The Letters of JRR Tolkien, in a letter to Naomi Mitchison (letter 144) who had been reading page proofs of FOTR, in reference to the Balrog, Tolkien writes: "The Balrog is a survivor from The Silmarillion and the legends of the First Age. .... They were supposed to have all been destroyed in the overthrow of Thanggorodrim, ..... It is observable that only the Elf knows what the thing is -- and doubtless Gandalf." The elf referred to is clearly Legolas. So here you have Tolkien essentially stating that Gimli, though he identifies the creature as "Durin's Bane" does not know what it truly is, only Legolas and Gandalf recognize it as a Balrog. Therefore in Tolkien's conception of the story the dwarves either never reported Durin's Bane with enough detail to identify it as a Balrog, or if they did the identification was never passed back to the dwarves (or certainly not to Gimli).

I don't understand what you are trying to say with your use of it. The passage Tolkien refers to is clearly the encounter of the Fellowship with the Balrog/Durin's Bane in Moria. Dain does not come in to it.

 

[Harad]

I am not "trying" to say anything. I am saying something. Gandalf and the Elf (or Elves in general) know what the Balrog is a priori[/]. This information was not shared for 1000 years. You posted part of the quote before but spun it for your own purposes.

 

[Greenwood]

Originally posted by Harad
I am not "trying" to say anything. I am saying something. Gandalf and the Elf (or Elves in general) know what the Balrog is a priori[/]. This information was not shared for 1000 years. You posted part of the quote before but spun it for your own purposes.

But Balrogs were thought to be destroyed over 4400 years before Gandalf ever arrived in Middle-earth (approx 1000 TA). Why should he ever discuss them with anyone? Your entire argument is based on the idea that various "people" (elves, Gandalf, etc.) should have been discussing and considering the possibility of creatures that were thought to have all been destroyed nearly 6500 years in the past. There is no logical reason for anyone to have associated Durin's Bane with a Balrog until people who knew what a Balrog was (Gandalf and Legolas) actually laid eyes on Durin's Bane. (Interestingly, Christopher Tolkien suggests in The Treason of Isengard volume of HoME that his father did not originally conceive of Durin's Bane being a Balrog, but that this was a later decision in the course of writing LOTR.)

 

[Harad]

Since you persist in putting blinders on, let me describe an logical, reasonable, sensible scenario.

c. 1100:The Wise (the Istari and the chief Eldar) discover that an evil power has made a stronghold at Dol Guldur. It is thought to be one of the Nazgûl.
1974: End of the North Kingdom. The Witch-king over-runs Arthedain and takes Fornost
1980: A Balrog appears in Moria and slays Durin VI
1981: Nain I slain, the Dwarves flee from Moria

So within a space of 7 years a Kingdom falls, with a very well known reason, and then the second largest city on ME, after Gondor, is destroyed with "Dwarves flee[ing]." The Wise and chief Eldar --both of whom according to the quote above would a priori recognize a balrog--have been keeping track of things for at least 800 years.

So just as they kept track of Dol Guldur (not too well admittedly) they do some investigative work with regards to Moria. They talk to a few of the surviving Dwarves to find that a fire demon with a whip of flames was Durin's Bane. The torch goes on in their brains: a balrog! Gee, we thought they were all dead, but we guess we were wrong.