Elfhelm & Dernhelm

[Deleted member 12094]

Hisoka, your statement does not have my sympathy. Might you perhaps rephrase this a little less ... well, you know!?

 

[Aldarion]

Hisoka, your statement does not have my sympathy. Might you perhaps rephrase this a little less ... well, you know!?

This part of the post was removed due to not following our rules
Removed by Mod: Not following our rules

Anyway, the reason why males usually held authority in old societies is simple. Males are expendable, women are not - it is mother who is most important in formative years of a child, both physically (birth, breastfeeding) and psychologically. Thus it is males who were hunters and warriors. War bands were necessary for protection of society, so eventually leaders of war bands took political power, which is where you get first chiefs, then dukes and finally kings. And since war bands consisted of males, males thus took leading roles in politics (though woman would often have a lot more "unofficial" authority than is usually recognized nowadays, with our - rather stupid, not to say in(s)ane - obsession with form over function, and letter as opposed to spirit of the law. We can see this in Tolkien too, with Galadriel having apparently leading role in Lorien).

 

[Squint-eyed Southerner]

he excluded matrilineal society from his work

The Fisher-folk hobbits from which Smeagol came may be an exception, going by Gandalf's description, and (I think) a passage in UT. I'd need to look up the latter.

 

[Deleted member 12094]

Removed by Mod

I take no pleasure at all, reading the turn this tread is taking. You are unhelpful here too Aldarion.

I take my distance here, pls note.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

Hisoka, your statement does not have my sympathy. Might you perhaps rephrase this a little less ... well, you know!?

Ehhh...due to going too far from topic too much?Come on, we're discussing why Theodon prefer Eowyn to stay from the front-line of War-zone,right? Or...does it involve sexual stereotype?😅😅😅

 

[Halasían]

Talking about Theoden, Eomer, and Eowyn is one thing. Making some rather wide swings in the air with history without citing your evidential source is another, and citing one's personal experience to present a misogynistic viewpoint is yet another. To stray further off-topic, but bringing the ship back around to Middle Earth, no wonder Erendis thought Aldorian was an ass.

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

Personal experience?My evidential source are "JRRT's BIG DATA"!!!! Tell me you big smart JRRT expert, how many cases did JRRT let females more prior than males to take military or political leaders as careers?JRRT doesn't need to take account to us for everything of his world, in particular those can be accounted by nothing but common sense. Don't tell me that JRRT has to explain most of the times that females were non-combat personnel in his lore.

Removed by Mod

Anyway, the reason why males usually held authority in old societies is simple. Males are expendable, women are not - it is mother who is most important in formative years of a child, both physically (birth, breastfeeding) and psychologically. Thus it is males who were hunters and warriors. War bands were necessary for protection of society, so eventually leaders of war bands took political power, which is where you get first chiefs, then dukes and finally kings. And since war bands consisted of males, males thus took leading roles in politics (though woman would often have a lot more "unofficial" authority than is usually recognized nowadays, with our - rather stupid, not to say in(s)ane - obsession with form over function, and letter as opposed to spirit of the law. We can see this in Tolkien too, with Galadriel having apparently leading role in Lorien).

Exactly, this is not "misogyny or gender discrimination" at all. Instead, this might be "real equality" and "factually fair" from other aspects.

 

[Halasían]

Personal experience?

Removed by Mod

Didn't think I had to point out the obvious to you Hisoka. Sorry, I wasn't taking exception with you other than the source. The initial discussion had something to do with the story in the books and was interesting. It ceased to be interesting to me a while ago and the way it is being presented with Aldarion's post which I quoted, makes the course of this discussion go way of topic and clearly brings a current attitude on women out, which for me is not on. I'm done. Have a Nice Day.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

Keep the thread on topic please. There's been some offensive comments that have had to be removed due to not contributing constructively. If it continues, the thread will be locked.

 

[Olorgando]

In addition, in comparison with military, politics seem much fitter to females due to lesser risks in theory, I think that's why Theodon appointed Eowyn to handle his political stuff, after all, there must be someone to let Rohan's national war machine keep working to afford the costs of military.

Rohan's national war machine? Hisoka, you seem to take what JRRT writes and try to apply it to I don't know what (and if you happen to be trying for allegory, you should know that JRRT had very strict and narrow rules for its use, and I think he would be highly unamused by your use). "Rohan's national war machine" (which does not exist in Middle-earth) is not the first time that I have been utterly mystified about where you get anything of the sort from JRRT's writings. The only "war machines" (which by definition are aggressive and offensive) ever mentioned in Middle-earth are those of Morgoth and Sauron - or those corrupted by them, most notably the Númenóreans gone bad. The War of Wrath, the War of the Last Alliance were not "war machines" needed for the totalitarian dominance of highly unwilling "subjects" by its leaders, they were temporary efforts aiming at the necessary destruction of precisely such aggressive "war machines". WW II is perhaps the only war in history to fit this definition (and as all human endeavors it did not achieve all necessary ends, only 2/3 of what was necessary, Hitler and Tojo, but leaving Stalin - I ignore Mussolini as basically irrelevant).

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

Rohan's national war machine? Hisoka, you seem to take what JRRT writes and try to apply it to I don't know what (and if you happen to be trying for allegory, you should know that JRRT had very strict and narrow rules for its use, and I think he would be highly unamused by your use). "Rohan's national war machine" (which does not exist in Middle-earth) is not the first time that I have been utterly mystified about where you get anything of the sort from JRRT's writings. The only "war machines" (which by definition are aggressive and offensive) ever mentioned in Middle-earth are those of Morgoth and Sauron - or those corrupted by them, most notably the Númenóreans gone bad. The War of Wrath, the War of the Last Alliance were not "war machines" needed for the totalitarian dominance of highly unwilling "subjects" by its leaders, they were temporary efforts aiming at the necessary destruction of precisely such aggressive "war machines". WW II is perhaps the only war in history to fit this definition (and as all human endeavors it did not achieve all necessary ends, only 2/3 of what was necessary, Hitler and Tojo, but leaving Stalin - I ignore Mussolini as basically irrelevant).

Ehh…the "war machine" I mean is every organisation that affords the war. So…I don't know if there're better words to describe such concept😖😖😖. Ok, just please give me some time to get other better words😖😖😖

 

[Olorgando]

In the specific situation which started off the thread, the Rohirrim (after having with just managed to fend off one aggressor, Saruman, with quite a bit of help), they were riding to the aid of an ally being threatened by a much worse and stronger aggressor. Yes, Théoden did not take all of his warriors with him that were still able to fight, leaving some behind to defend as best possible his civilians, to be led (when finally having it pointed out to him by Háma) by Éowyn. None of the "good side", neither Gondor nor Rohan (and never mind the Shire or the Elves) ever had any aggressive, expansionist, imperial ambitions (which may make at least Gondor, considering it's size, somewhat unrealistic in "real-world" terms). Such ambitions, being Sauron's, are what create a war machine (and I think JRRT would have agreed very much about the "machine" aspect of it). Taking shelter in Dunharrow would not have done the Rohirrim civilians much good had Sauron been victorious, no more so than the refuge in the Glittering Caved had Saruman been able to capture Helm's Deep.
As to the "Easterlings" and "Southrons" who "supported" Sauron, besides his possible, nebulous history as a "god-king" among them in earlier Ages, might have been driven to attack Gondor anyway in the form that rich empires have always attracted plundering "barbarians". Against these Gondor and Rohan retained their military capabilities, of a defensive nature mainly, though Gondor occasionally launched attacks say against Umbar to put a stop to raiding. Again, perhaps, something unrealistic considering "real-world" history, but to use especially perhaps all-too-modern terms to describe the doings of the "good side" (the baddies being viewed as quite "modern", most of all Saruman, is quite legitimate) just doesn't fit for Middle-earth.

 

[Aldarion]

None of the "good side", neither Gondor nor Rohan (and never mind the Shire or the Elves) ever had any aggressive, expansionist, imperial ambitions (which may make at least Gondor, considering it's size, somewhat unrealistic in "real-world" terms).

Actually, Gondor clearly did have expansionist phase (under ship-kings, I believe). Granted, it was partly in self-defense... but that is basically what Romans did (some of the time at least): to ensure safety of their territory they will have conquered neighbouring tribe(s), which then became part of their territory, which then meant that they had to conquer new neighbours... overall, Gondor is much more "modern" of the two, and I have always seen Gondor-Rohan relationship as similar to that of Rome and its various allied tribes, although much more stable and with much less bad faith on both sides. Especially since ancestors of Rohirrim are aparently kinda-sorta Goths, while division of kingdoms is reminiscent of that of Roman Empire (and division of Arnor further similar to that of Carolingian Empire, which is successor to Western Roman Empire)...

So Gondor did have "war machine". However, there is also a clear difference from that of Mordor, and I see Gondor's military - and society in general - as sitting in-between extensive individualization and humanization of Rohan and opposing excessive collectivization and dehumanization of Mordor. Rohan itself is far from disorganized, and Gondor is obviously based on Byzantine military organization. But both of these still end up far more organic, far closer to human nature and society as such - on individual and organizational level alike - than is the case with Mordor, which is organized in line with modern, industrial military machine. In fact, it is partly this dehumanization, this excessive centralization in search of absolute control, which is partly responsible for Sauron's defeat in the end. For both Gondor and Rohan, military is connected to the society and springs organically from it; Mordor however does not have society to begin with, it is an army with a state attached to it.

So to bring this back to the OP, Elfhelm and eored being aware of Eowyn's/Dernhelm's deception is perfectly in line with virtues displayed by the Free Men, especially Rohirrim: sense of individual honour and responsibility, as opposed to industrialization of Mordor where everyone hides behind their superiors, their orders, and in general seems keen to avoid responsibility.

 

[Deleted member 12094]

Gondor is obviously based on Byzantine military organization

I am more surprised each time with your ever-reiterating Byzantine stuff.
In these parts we discuss literature facts, not fanfic.

You have been challenged several times before. about your sources of that Byzantine idée-fixe of yours.
Where did JRRT confirm that???

Pls beware that, by proposing nonsense for facts in this TTF forum area, you are not only confusing prospective readers; you are also undermining the credibility of this site.

Give us your exact references where JRRT confirmed Gondor=Byzantine.

 

[Aldarion]

I am more surprised each time with your ever-reiterating Byzantine stuff.
In these parts we discuss literature facts, not fanfic.

You have been challenged several times before. about your sources of that Byzantine idée-fixe of yours.
Where did JRRT confirm that???

Pls beware that, by proposing nonsense for facts in this TTF forum area, you are not only confusing prospective readers; you are also undermining the credibility of this site.

Give us your exact references where JRRT confirmed Gondor=Byzantine.

Reply moved here to avoid further offtopicking, plus it is kinda long as I not only provided reference but also explained various parallels.

 

[Alcuin]

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[Aldarion]

[QUOTE = "Alcuin, post: 536706, član: 6732"]
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[/ CITAT]
???

 

[Hisoka Morrow]

@Aldarion , Holy Left wing "Human Right Fighters and Crusaders", that is XD