Finarfin turning back

[Inderjit S]

I am sure Dorthonion was not considered quite as safe as Nargothrond, but is it that unlikely it was so dangerous we are to think Orodreth should not have had his daughter there

In the 'Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth' we learn that him and his brothers had no faith in the siege and knew it would be broken. Orodreth, of course would have shared this view. Dorthinion was the most dangerous part in all Beleriand, it was one of the only places where skirmishes were still taking place (Except maybe for the Pass of Aglon where in (Of Maeglin, HoME 11) Curufin and Celegorm are said to be, rather confusingly, preparing for battle) and so I think it would have been natural for Orodreth, to safeguard his son/HOT daughter (hehe) who were quite young, since their Mom was a 'Sindarin lady of the North' and send them to the hidden refuge of Nargothrond, which Morgoth knew nothing about. I think it was more likely for him to send Finduilas there, since she was a woman, and though Elves Nissi (prior to pregnancy) could fight as well as Neri, Elven Neri were naturally more suited to battles then Nissi. But of course I have no basis for this theory of mine just a little idea from me, the validity of it is questionable but then again so are all theories.

And back to the published Sil for a second: why think Findiulas was in Nargothrond before the battle of Sudden Flame began? Am I forgetting somthing

Same argument really. Except my theory is a bit weaker in this case, maybe.

Prior to Bragollach is what you said earlier... but the first 'Nirnaeth' in this quote may be a typo?

As I said it was a mistake, I meant to say the 'Nirnaeth Arnoediad' but I said 'Dagor Bragollach'. They constituted the same thing, in my mind, when I wrote it, except I got the names wrong. Sorry.

Well if over 3 thousand is not enough to make a difference what difference then would a few more hundred make unless it was Noldor influence

What I meant to say is the Belegaer would have been impassable both then and when the Noldor arrived, that is the impression I got from the text,

And the voice warned him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet

Last Writings; HoME 12

Implies that no matter how much his skill improved as a ship-Wright, or of his marining skills he would not be able to reach Valinor for a long time because of his pivotal role in the storyline of the Silmarillion and because at that time Belegaer would have been impassable.

Do you think it is more likely that 17 years could not have been enough time

I suppose it could be long enough to fall in love.

Yeah but there was call to be insulted on a personal level about you mistaking that I called Orodreth as the son of Angrod a speculation

And I am sorry for it.

 

[Confusticated]

This bit you are interpreting from PoME is also what I had in mind but I do not take the same meaning from it.

"And the voice warned him not to attempt this peril; for his strength and skill would not be able to build any ship able to dare the winds and waves of the Great Sea for many long years yet. 'Abide now that time, for when it comes then will your work be of utmost worth..."

I take this to mean that Cirdan and his people were just not good enough at building ships yet, though one day he would be and then it would prove to have been a great thing.

Around what point in time do you think Cirdan's skill reached a level where ships could reach Aman (neverminding it was fenced)?

But do you think the Noldor taught Cirdan a thing or two which allowed him to reach this level of skill by the time of Earendil? All that I recall is that Nargothrond elves did make ships. If he reached this level no thanks to the Noldor, than why shouldn't he have reached it if the Noldor had not returned?

And I had forgot that the Teleri had been making boats along the journey west, before they even reached the coasts, so I had been thinking that this was a very new craft for them at the time Cirdan got his message.

Sure, Orodreth probably thought like Aegnor and Angrod that the seige would not hold. I hadn't thought of that before, and it reminds me by the way, that he might have been with them in their support of Fingolfin's idea, not long before Bragollach, to assault Angband. That Orodreth was not of the same opinion as them in the Tol Sirion version, might or might not be indication that he felt safe there in Tol Sirion.

I do not know why you ment to say 'Nirnaeth' originally instead of 'Dagor Bragollach'? If you had said Nirnaeth, I do not know what point you would have been making.

Your point in mentioning Dagor Bragollach seemed to be that Gwindor knowing Finduilas before Dagor Bragollach is evidence that Gwindor was not at Tol Sirion but Nargothrond instead. I agree that evidence would imply the conclusion, but I found the evidence questionable. Edrahil somehow does seem more likely though.



!

Yeah but there was call to be insulted on a personal level about you mistaking that I called Orodreth as the son of Angrod a speculation

And I am sorry for it.

Bad typo on my part! That should have said "there was no call to be insulted"!

 

[Inderjit S]

I take this to mean that Cirdan and his people were just not good enough at building ships yet, though one day he would be and then it would prove to have been a great thing.

Different interpretations, I guess.

But do you think the Noldor taught Cirdan a thing or two which allowed him to reach this level of skill by the time of Earendil

The Noldor had little or no interest in ship-building.

Tuor in his long journey by the west shores of Beleriand, after his escape from captivity, had been visited by the great Vala Ulmo in person, and Ulmo had directed him to seek for Gondolin, foretelling that if he found it he would there beget a son ever afterwards renowned as a mariner. Improbable as this seemed to Tuor, since neither the Atani nor the Ñoldor had any love of the sea or of ships, he named his son in Quenya 'sea-lover'.

Shibboleth of Feanor; HoME 12

Nargothrond had close relations with the Falas. Finrod raised a tower, Barad Nimrais, down the coast from Eglorest, to watch the Western Seas. Barad Nimrais was cast down in the Dagor Bragollach. Turgon sent some people to Cirdan so they could send a emissary to the Valar. Voronwe, was amongst these.

And I had forgot that the Teleri had been making boats along the journey west, before they even reached the coasts, so I had been thinking that this was a very new craft for them at the time Cirdan got his message.

Indeed. Cirdan was amongst the most enthusiastic in these early experiments with ship-making and marining.

Before ever they came to Beleriand the Teleri had developed a craft of boat-making; first as rafts, and soon as light boats with paddles made in imitation of the water-birds upon the lakes near their first homes, and later on the Great Journey in crossing rivers, or especially during their long tarrying on the shores of the 'Sea of Rhûn', where their ships became larger and stronger. But in all this work Círdan had ever been the foremost and most inventive and skilful

Last Writings; HoME 11

I do not know why you ment to say 'Nirnaeth' originally instead of 'Dagor Bragollach'? If you had said Nirnaeth, I do not know what point you would have been making.

Well, if we are working with the 'Published Silmarillion' we have no concrete evidence that Finduilas and Gwindor knew each other before the Bragollach, since we can presume that she was living in Tol Sirion with her father (Though, as I have said I have different ideas) and Orodreth only reached Nargothrond after the start of the Dago Bragollach, but we have concrete evidence that they knew each other before it.

 

[Confusticated]

The Noldor had little or no interest in ship-building.

I did not ask if you thought the Noldor taught Cirdan to build ships. I said "But do you think the Noldor taught Cirdan a thing or two which allowed him to reach this level of skill by the time of Earendil?" and a couple posts before that: "Well if over 3 thousand [Years of the Sun] is not enough to make a difference what difference then would a few more hundred make unless it was Noldor influence?"

The Noldor were very crafty and skilled, and skills taught by them could be applied to ship-building. It is not far fetched, but makes perfect sense. The Teleri would probably apply any relevant knowledge or skill to their crafts, or use Noldor tools... who wouldn't?

However I went on to say: "All that I recall is that Nargothrond elves did make ships."

From The Silmarillion, Of Beleriand of and its Realms:

With the aid of the elves of the Havens some of the folk of Nargothrond built new ships, and they went forth and explored the great Isle of Balar...

So this:

Improbable as this seemed to Tuor, since neither the Atani nor the Noldor had any love of the sea or of ships, he named his son in Quenya 'sea-lover'.

... is correct as a general statement but does not have to mean that none of the Noldor ever took part in the craft.

Well, if we are working with the 'Published Silmarillion' we have no concrete evidence that Finduilas and Gwindor knew each other before the Bragollach, since we can presume that she was living in Tol Sirion with her father (Though, as I have said I have different ideas) and Orodreth only reached Nargothrond after the start of the Dago Bragollach, but we have concrete evidence that they knew each other before it.

Taking Orodreth was in Dorthonion with his father until the Dagor Bragollach, it does seem likely enough Finduilas had been sent to Nargothrond and therefore knew Gwindor before Dagor Bragollach, but I fail to see any 'concrete evidence'.

But my point was that I do not see what point you were making when you said Gwindor knew Finduilas before Dagor Bragollach if you ment to say Nirnaeth. He knew her before Nirnaeth - what of it?

But again I'll restate my point about the Noldor influence in Cirdan's ship-building. I do not see how you can think the Falathrim would not have been able to make it to Aman if not for the exile of the Noldor, if you also think the Noldor had no influence on the skill of the Falathrim's ship building.

If the Elves of Nargothrond did not cause the Falathrim to add to their skill and allow for a ship that could cross the sea, then they could have reached this skill level without the Noldor. Right?

Again, they had roughly three thousand years (since the time of the message to Cirdan about them being unable to cross the sea) of experience before the Noldor even returned, and we know that 500 years later they could make a ship to cross the seas, so it is possible this last 500 did not make the difference (if you think the Noldor skill did not add to that of the Teleri)... and that the skill level had perhaps been reached before the Noldor even returned.

The only way I can see the Falathrim not being able to make it to Aman if not for the return of the Noldor, is if we assume the Noldor influence of their craft was none (but how could this be?) or was so little or such that that it was not necessary in Cirdan reaching the level to cross the sea, and, if we also assume that despite the lack of Noldor influence, the Falathrim were just reaching this level at the time of Earendil, and that Morgoth's return (in the what-if scenerio here - the Noldor do not return) caused them to be unable to continue to advance, and the Falathrim were ruined right before they reached that skill level.

 

[Inderjit S]

Yes, but in the quote you have provided, the Noldor had the ships built by the Falathrim or had at least a substantial amount of aid from them. They may have developed ship-building skills in Beleriand but they had none in Aman, nor did they have need for any.

But as the mind of Fëanor cooled and took counsel he perceived overlate that all these great companies would never overcome the long leagues to the north, nor cross the seas at the last, save with the aid of ships; yet it would need long time and toil to build so great a fleet, even were there any among the Noldor skilled in that craft

Of The Flight of The Noldor

The only way I can see the Falathrim not being able to make it to Aman if not for the return of the Noldor, is if we assume the Noldor influence of their craft was none (but how could this be?) or was so little or such that that it was not necessary in Cirdan reaching the level to cross the sea, and, if we also assume that despite the lack of Noldor influence, the Falathrim were just reaching this level at the time of Earendil, and that Morgoth's return (in the what-if scenerio here - the Noldor do not return) caused them to be unable to continue to advance, and the Falathrim were ruined right before they reached that skill level.

I'm saying the quote from HoME 12 tells me that the sea was impossible to cross at that time. It was closed to the Elves of M-E-they could never go to Aman. After the WoTJ, the situation was different. Manwe decreed that the Elves should go to Aman/Eressea or else fade. So it was permitted by the Vala to cross, I don't think it had anything to do with any technological advances

 

[Confusticated]

Yes, but in the quote you have provided, the Noldor had the ships built by the Falathrim or had at least a substantial amount of aid from them. They may have developed ship-building skills in Beleriand but they had none in Aman, nor did they have need for any.

I do not see how it matters if the Noldor had no ship-building experience in Aman. My point was that it is possible that thorugh contact with the Noldor and Noldorin tools and skill, the Falathrim likely learned things that were applied to their ship-building craft.

Aside: given the close contact between the Noldor and Teleri in Eldamar, I think some of the Noldor must have knew a bit about the craft.

I'm saying the quote from HoME 12 tells me that the sea was impossible to cross at that time. It was closed to the Elves of M-E-they could never go to Aman. After the WoTJ, the situation was different. Manwe decreed that the Elves should go to Aman/Eressea or else fade. So it was permitted by the Vala to cross, I don't think it had anything to do with any technological advances

Well, our different interpretations aside, (you think the sea was worse, I think the ships were less) I am boggled by this: "It was closed to the Elves of M-E-they could never go to Aman." as I had no idea that Aman was closed against the elves of Middle-earth before the rebellion of the Noldor!

 

[Inderjit S]

Well that prior to the coming of the Noldor the Elves of Beleriand couldn't reach Aman, even if they had the best ships in the world.

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by Inderjit S
Well that prior to the coming of the Noldor the Elves of Beleriand couldn't reach Aman, even if they had the best ships in the world.

Why couldn't they?