Forging of Narsil, credible or ridiculous?

[Lantarion]

There are three general ways I can imagine seeing the smithying-scene: 1) It was so simple and unrealistically short because it was meant only to show symbolically that Andúril was indeed being forged (would you really want to watch the whole process, as Eledhwen well demonstrated it?); 2) It was so short because it was only one small part of the entire process; and 3) It was indeed shoddy and illogical as a scene and came off as something slightly 'off' in the film.
IMO, ptions 1 and 2 are both quite possible; the first one seems highly probable in fact. We all knew that when PJ set out to make the films, that he wasn't going to include every single detail. Many, including myself, are upset that he didn't, but then again it might even be better that some things were left out (althuogh I highly disagree on very many parts). For example, the smithying scene isn't even featurd in the book! It is mentioned, obivously; but it is neither described or narrated directly, and so in a way PJ overstepped a line, rather than coming short of one.
Part 3 is something I can understand too though; it does seema little silly, to see three Elves just whacking away at a bit of metal with no protection whatsoever.. That bugged me a little at the time too, as I recall..

So in fact, all three points are wholly valid. It's all a matter of interpretation.

 

[Confusticated]

Well they were not completely unprotected. They had protective clothing of some sort, and from what I have seen in other pictures this clothing was realistic I guess. I am not sure if a smith would have worn eye protection to do what those elves where doing, it just looks dangerous to me.

But as for which of those three things Lantarion mentions? I wouldn't even guess because I still don't know for a fact the scene is wrong or if it is wrong just how much of it is wrong? I was hoping someone who knows a lot about the subject might be among us to answer this.

I personally never expected to see the entire scene, and don't question which part of the process Jackson chose to show, but just if the part he showed was correct. I may hunt down a blacksmith site where people can ask questions like this.

 

[joxy]

....I still don't know for a fact the scene is wrong or if it is wrong just how much of it is wrong.

I don't think anyone needs to know about the process of making swords to know that the scene is, literally, "wrong". However, I'm sure that PJ never intended it to be "right"! It's obvious from the start of the very brief scene that it's meant to be what an artist might call "impressionistic", or as Lantarion says "symbolic" - the dissolve from separate pieces to a single blade shows that immediately - and I think that was a good idea. What we see is nothing like what a genuine process would have been.
I usually think that PJ's inventions should have been left out entirely, but in this instance I would actually have preferred it to be a little longer! It's the haste with which it's presented that makes it seem, again quoting Lantarion, somehow "off" in the film.

 

[Confusticated]

I don't think anyone needs to know about the process of making swords to know that the scene is, literally, "wrong".

Well I do. I for one couldn't say what exactly is wrong with it, and someone else in this thread thought that it was right.

As for Jackson having a need to show unrealistic technique for the purpose of making the scene look good and get the point across, frankly I wouldn't agree being so ignorant about the craft. For all I know, there are plenty credible stages in the reforging of a sword that could have got the point over just as well. But so far I still don't know what was wrong with the scene. I don't think anyone in this thread knows everything that is wrong with the scene.

While we're at it, what did you guys think of the other smith work, the forging of the Ring and of the Uruk-hai weapons in the pits of Isengard?

 

[Eledhwen]

The main problem with the forging of the ring is that, on the film, it wasn't forged - it was cast in a mold. It makes me smile to see splatters of the very essence of Sauron dripped all over the foundry floor. I have a silver bracelet that was forged for me from several layers of metal, hammered and fused. This is more like how I envisioned the One Ring being made - interleaved with spells and malice with each hammer blow.

 

[joxy]

....I for one couldn't say what exactly is wrong with it....
I don't think anyone in this thread knows everything that is wrong with the scene.

Well for one thing, the bits just jump back together like magic!
Then, you can't just put two bits of hot metal together and expect them to turn into one. The only way to re-make the sword would have been to melt it all down and make a completely new one. The process itself is extremely lengthy, involving shaping, then repeatedly layering and hammering the metal, before giving it its cutting edges.
Jackson obviously decided to give the matter very little time, and to show it impressionistically and symbolically rather than technically, a decision that I think was the only practical way to approach it.
In fact, the scene IS too short for any concern about ALL that might be "wrong" with it.

 

[Arvedui]

I agree with you, Nóm (and joxy as well). The whole forging looks very, very wrong. I believe joxy is right about needing to reforge everything. I know just as much about smithying as I do about bioengineering, but I have a feeling that a sword remade in this manner would be intolerably weak in the "welding", especially because one part of the sword will have been warmed up more than the rest of the sword. Something tells me that this will be more brittle than the rest.

BTW, have anyone else noticed the incredible length of Anduril? Talk about Elendil the Tall...

 

[joxy]

A proper sword isn't just a strip, like a knife with a cutting edge on each side, cut out of a sheet of metal, so that you could maybe stick it back together if it broke.
The sheet of metal is actually like puff pastry, made by repeatedly folding the sheet of metal and hammering it instead of rolling the pastry. You can't stick two bits of puff pastry together! It's that process that gives both strength and flexibility to the finished product. PJ has already admitted that real swords don't make a metallic clang as they're drawn, and that he adds the sound for effect; that seems reasonable enough and I suppose we should allow him the same "artistic" liberty about the very brief "re-forging" of Narsil.

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

A proper sword isn't just a strip, like a knife with a cutting edge on each side, cut out of a sheet of metal, so that you could maybe stick it back together if it broke.
The sheet of metal is actually like puff pastry, made by repeatedly folding the sheet of metal and hammering it instead of rolling the pastry. You can't stick two bits of puff pastry together! It's that process that gives both strength and flexibility to the finished product. PJ has already admitted that real swords don't make a metallic clang as they're drawn, and that he adds the sound for effect; that seems reasonable enough and I suppose we should allow him the same "artistic" liberty about the very brief "re-forging" of Narsil.

Here's "All You Wanted to Know About Swordmaking But Were Afraid to Ask:" http://user.netonecom.net/~swordman/SwordMaking/InfoOnLine.html

Barley

 

[joxy]

Thanks BB. There really isn't any subject about which someone hasn't constructed at least one Web Site!
That one confirms my point about what is called Damascus steel: multiple layers of metal welded and hammered together, resulting in a flexible but strong material which can be given a sharp cutting edge.

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

Thanks BB. There really isn't any subject about which someone hasn't constructed at least one Web Site!
That one confirms my point about what is called Damascus steel: multiple layers of metal welded and hammered together, resulting in a flexible but strong material which can be given a sharp cutting edge.

And there is a whole separate universe concerning the manufacture of samurai swords...

Barley

 

[joxy]

Japanese swords, yes. That's where a craft becomes an art, the best of them all.

 

[Eledhwen]

What I find puzzling is that the film makers employed a host of armourers and other experts for the sake of authenticity. PJ even made someone remove some Elvish 'graffiti' because there were folks out there who could read Elvish. Then they go and make such an amateurish job of the 'forging' of the ring (in a mold) and the reforging of Narsil, when there are probably just as many metalsmiths and metallurgists who would be sitting there going '!?!' as Elvish-readers saying 'That scrap of parchment says "Gary was here"'. I'm no expert, but I know the difference between forging and casting, and I expect most people do, whether they enjoyed their Craft, Design and Technology lessons at school or not. And as most people who have contributed to this thread have said, they knew instinctively that the reforging shown in the film would make a pretty weak sword.

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

What I find puzzling is that the film makers employed a host of armourers and other experts for the sake of authenticity. PJ even made someone remove some Elvish 'graffiti' because there were folks out there who could read Elvish. Then they go and make such an amateurish job of the 'forging' of the ring (in a mold) and the reforging of Narsil, when there are probably just as many metalsmiths and metallurgists who would be sitting there going '!?!' as Elvish-readers saying 'That scrap of parchment says "Gary was here"'. I'm no expert, but I know the difference between forging and casting, and I expect most people do, whether they enjoyed their Craft, Design and Technology lessons at school or not. And as most people who have contributed to this thread have said, they knew instinctively that the reforging shown in the film would make a pretty weak sword.

Hee hee! It just goes to show: with a project that huge, a lot of things get lost, or fall in the cracks...the best of us are only human after all.

I do believe however, that they should have given more attention to the forging scene, if for no other reason than that the sword's reforging was a turning point in the whole saga.

Barley

 

[joxy]

What I find puzzling....

It's long been established that these films are one long puzzle from start to finish!
Vast amounts of effort and money are used for things that don't matter one bit. Other vital things seem to have been completely neglected.
Hobbits' feet - tremendous effort to fix them, a couple of hours each a day - yet they're "wrong" to the book!
Runes on a wall - experts from several countries called in to make sure they're accurate and make sense - but no film viewer can see them, let alone read them!
Various languages rendered accurately - English invented that clashes with the original like chalk and cheese!
A cave full of barrels in one shot - all gone the next!
The list goes ever on and on.

 

[Eledhwen]

a bad rhyme, sung to The Road Goes Ever On and On

The list goes ever on and on
All the things the film got wrong
So far away the script has run
It's good, but is it Tolkien?

So queueing up with eager feet
To watch the latest episode
A glimpse of Middle-earth I meet
On Mr Jackson's chosen road

And so the questions still remain:
Why did the experts take such pain
To get the tiny details right
With glaring anomalies left to blight?

 

[joxy]

Eledhwen, when I make my version of FOTR you'll be the first writer I'll turn to!

 

[Eledhwen]

Do I get to write the poetry? My favourite was an off the cuff one about Bilbo needing batteries to provide him with sparkly eyes for Valinor - I posted it on this Forum somewhere, but can't for the life of me think where - it's probably been deleted or archived by now