🧝Galadriel in the Amazon Series

Halasían said:

My wife is so eloquent!

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This really just serves to reinforce my Twitter friend's assertion that the character would have been better served by being Celebrían.

Side note: if Galadriel isn't married to Celeborn yet in this show, how'd she get the name Galadriel? That's a name he gave her.

Maybe he met her in passing.

OK, apologies in advance, but my innate laziness precludes doing a bunch of quotes, so . . .

Elthir, it sounds like whatever source you read was talking about cuir bouilli -- which wasn't really "boiled", but was a hardened leather, and, though it was used as a kind of cheap and light armor from ancient times into the Medieval (and into the 20th century, in some cases, the Germans not trading in their pickelhaubes for stahlhelms until 1916 -- leather not proving very good against bullets and shrapnel), I'm not aware of any specific references in Tolkien, though I could well be wrong there.

Tar Elenion, thanks for the citations. I never considered the iron collar to be "plate", but I suppose it's a matter of opinion.

For scales, besides the Southron, Tolkien talks somewhere (laziness again) about the Isengard orcs having only the "heavy and clumsy armor they made for themselves"; there may have been a "crude" thrown in there too.* I always took this to indicate scale, as this is much easier to make than mail, and likely of iron, rather than steel. And in fact, there's a passage in the drafts, where Frodo and Sam are escaping from what would eventually become Minas Morgul, when they encounter an orc in scale armor; IIRC Frodo stabs him up under the the plates.

I believe the Ulmo references are to mail, not scale, as Tolkien, who would certainly know the difference, calls it mail in one of your citations. I think it's used to give a more piscine feeling.

The fish-scale simile also goes for the other quotations, I believe; I think they're meant to emphasize the quality of the workmanship -- it's suppleness and intricacy. Mail is made in various ways, some fairly simple, some highly complex, aa can be seen here:



Mail made with smaller rings and more connections obviously takes more time and skill, and could well be seen as like "fish scales".

As a somewhat irrelevant end note, I'll mention that a Sumerian myth, that passed on through Akkad to Babylon, talks about wise "fish-men", or "fish-gods" who came out of the sea to grant knowledge and protection to the first people.


I could tell a story connected with that, but it would be even more off topic.

So I won't.

* Late edit: Found it while looking for something else:

In Isengard as yet only the heavy and clumsy mail of the Orcs was made, by them for their own uses.

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Unfinished Tales, p. 366

So maybe it wasn't scale, after all. Or maybe he was using the term on a more "generic" sense.

In a feeble attempt to bring this thread back on-topic, I have to say that the actor who plays young Galadriel, Amelie Child-Villers, did a remarkable job playing the part!

ZehnWaters said:

Side note: if Galadriel isn't married to Celeborn yet in this show, how'd she get the name Galadriel? That's a name he gave her.

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Did he?

In a late letter, dated March 1973, Tolkien explained that the name Galadriel: "It is a secondary name given to her in her youth in the far past because she had long hair which glistened like gold, but was also shot with silver. She was then of Amazon disposition and bound up her hair as a crown when taking part in athletic feats." JRRT, letter 348

No mention of who gave the name to her here . . . although it seems (at least) like she got it in Aman.

Oh wait, maybe you mean that text [The Shibboleth of Feanor] in which the Telerin Elf of Aman called Teleporno gave the Telerin name Alatáriel to Nerwende Artanis -- seemingly giving it to her before they "wedded later in Beleriand" -- and which name [Alatáriel] was later rendered in Sindarin as Galadriel? [see also note 8 in NOME part XVI, where it is said "Teleporno" gave the name to her]

Well, if so, then waitaminnit says I

As Tolkien appears to have forgotten that he'd already published (twice!) that Celeborn was a Sindarin Elf, so he [Celeborn] wasn't in Aman with the speakers of Telerin, and thus he didn't meet Nerwende till later in Doriath, where he, I'd guess, would be speaking the Sindarin of Doriath.

Maybe he spoke Sindarin and still named Nerwende Galadriel? But if so, that would mean that she didn't get the name in Aman, in any case -- where if she did, it would not yet be in Sindarin of course.

In any case, in my opinion, if Tolkien still wants Celeborn to name Galadriel then he [JRRT] better invent a scenario that better fits his own, author-published accounts.

And yes this post is largely just having some fun . . . but still

Squint-eyed Southerner said:

Elthir, it sounds like whatever source you read was talking about cuir bouilli -- which wasn't really "boiled", but was a hardened leather, (. . .)

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My vaguely recalled source was some chat on a Tolkien forum somewhere years ago -- where I think someone claimed that Imrahil's vambrace "could" be bright burnished leather -- but as I noted earlier, I wouldn't know if that's even possible . . .

. . . to be fair, I could even be misremembering the so called (by me) claim!

Anyway, all the more reason to thank you for the info SES! Appreciated!

No problem. Next time, I may show up in "e"-mail.

Cool coat . . . but I've already got one!

ZehnWaters said:

Side note: if Galadriel isn't married to Celeborn yet in this show, how'd she get the name Galadriel? That's a name he gave her.

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And didn't they marry in Doriath? Or am I misremembering?

Elthir said:

My vaguely recalled source was some chat on a Tolkien forum somewhere years ago -- where I think someone claimed that Imrahil's vambrace "could" be bright burnished leather -- but as I noted earlier, I wouldn't know if that's even possible . . .

. . . to be fair, I could even be misremembering the so called (by me) claim!

Anyway, all the more reason to thank you for the info SES! Appreciated!

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This generally stems from Michael Martinez.

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Ealdwyn
Re: G&C marrying. Variant accounts have it in Doriath or right at the beginning of the 2nd Age.
Might be another account that I don't recall off hand.

Ealdwyn said:

And didn't they marry in Doriath? Or am I misremembering?

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As Tar-Elenion noted, there are several references. With respect to the new Nature of Middle-Earth book, in the first reference, for example, Tolkien explains that there were few marriages or child-births among the Eldar during the war with Angband, adding that Galadriel probably married Celeborn soon after the overthrow of Morgoth . . .

Another reference: "but by Bel. 590 at the destruction of Beleriand only about 6 years older, say 28. She married Celeborn at that time and went to Eriador."

Another example: "Early in the Second Age she married Celeborn, and dwelt first in Lindon." (1965)

That said, if my external chronology is correct, any reference to the time of their wedding in The Nature of Middle-Earth is earlier that the reference to The Shibboleth of Feanor [dated 1968 or later] where it's said they "wedded later in Beleriand" [Celeborn being a Teler of Aman here]

I can't recall if there are any other references to this. I recall being surprised that there were some in the new book, but again, however one interprets it, I'm pretty sure (!) the "in Beleriand" reference is later than these.

Here is one I was having difficulty, in my dotage, remembering:
"‘Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Fëanor in defence of Alqualondë.'"
Very late (1973) marginal note in the Annals of Aman. CT the refers the reader to UT.

At the not deeply looked into reading, this seems to imply they were married in Aman.

Tar-Elenion said:

Here is one I was having difficulty, in my dotage, remembering: "‘Finrod and Galadriel (whose husband was of the Teleri) fought against Fëanor in defence of Alqualondë.'" Very late (1973) marginal note in the Annals of Aman. CT the refers the reader to UT. At the not deeply looked into reading, this seems to imply they were married in Aman.

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For myself, I took this digression to point out that Celeborn was Telerin (in Tolkien's mind at this point), but not necessarily to mean that they had wed before the defense of Swanhaven -- although I guess it could be read that way as well.

Also, the way I read things, the marginal note to the Annals of Aman typescript is not dated, as in my opinion, CJRT is referring to the late "adumbrated tale" in Unfinished Tales as dating to 1973 -- wherein we find Tolkien stepping on already published text again (Galadriel removed from the Rebellion), and wherein it is not stated (either way) if Celeborn and Galadriel were married in Aman or later.

That said, I'd date the marginal note to AA typescript as post RGEO (1967), as this "Telerin Tel(e)porno" idea seems to have arisen sometime after Tolkien published [RGEO again] that Celeborn was one of the Sindar.

And thus Celeborn remains Sindarin for me.

Elthir said:

Also, the way I read things, the marginal note to the Annals of Aman typescript is not dated, as in my opinion, CJRT is referring to the late "adumbrated tale" in Unfinished Tales as dating to 1973 --

And thus Celeborn remains Sindarin for me.

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Re-reading it again, you are correct. I misread (or misplaced in reading) the 'see' in CT's commentary.

Bahnz said:

Probably not particularly faithful to first/second age Galadriel, but a good deal more faithful than PJ’s decision to turn Arwen into a sword-wielding badass in FOTR. At the end of the day, if it comes as part of a good show I’m fine with it. Time will tell.

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But she still felt like a healer despite riding a horse to me. So it didnt feel too out of place for that liberty.
Even though in the book it was Frodo who rode and resisted the ringwraiths. Like the cartoon aswell

Elthir said:

For myself, I took this digression to point out that Celeborn was Telerin (in Tolkien's mind at this point), but not necessarily to mean that they had wed before the defense of Swanhaven -- although I guess it could be read that way as well.

Also, the way I read things, the marginal note to the Annals of Aman typescript is not dated, as in my opinion, CJRT is referring to the late "adumbrated tale" in Unfinished Tales as dating to 1973 -- wherein we find Tolkien stepping on already published text again (Galadriel removed from the Rebellion), and wherein it is not stated (either way) if Celeborn and Galadriel were married in Aman or later.

That said, I'd date the marginal note to AA typescript as post RGEO (1967), as this "Telerin Tel(e)porno" idea seems to have arisen sometime after Tolkien published [RGEO again] that Celeborn was one of the Sindar.

And thus Celeborn remains Sindarin for me.

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Heck Galadriel was Celeborn's SECOND wife at one point, with Amroth being her step-son. This idea seems to have been almost immediately abandoned and struck through, per NoME. Tolkien really needed to have just settled on SOMETHING for those two and stop meddling.

I loved the very stoic wood elves arriving at Helms Deep in Jackson's second movie. I am guessing Morfydd Clark was probably also enamored with the displayed countenances of that not so merry band, their not so very wide range of portrayed emotion. Perhaps she talked Ismael Cordova into also adopting a stiff Gorgon method.

Yes I'm trying to be funny, but I do mean it. I was sore afraid Galadriel would emote all over the place, some sort of woke angst against the established forces round about. Instead she (and Arondir) stiff face their duty like elves should! She should never look contrary, even when forced to act contrary.

If I would have been giving a screen test for Galadriel, I would have been looking to find someone who displays a very narrow emotional range in the role. I am relieved in who we now have as Galadriel.

Watched the first 2 episodes on Friday with a friend. Visually and audibly I thought it was fantastic. It did end there though mostly for me. Galadriel was the weak point in the show for me, found her very uninteresting as they made her into a super warrior princess that was the only one capable of handling surprise situations like that snow troll. I really enjoyed Elrond and Durin and the chemistry between the 2 characters. Harfoots felt like place holders to try and garnish the interest of those who think Hobbits are essential to the world Tolkien created. The dark skinned elf, can't remember his name, was like most of the characters boring. I won't blame any of the cast of actors, you can only work with what you are given and to me it all seemed pretty weak. I will continue to check out new episodes, I have not been entirely turned off to it, but it certainly does not have been waiting with baited breath for the next episode.

What I like so much about Galadriel is her many different facial expressions and moods, where you could strongly sympathize with her so far. Here are a few examples.

Confident:


Exhausted:


Thoughtful:


Sad:


Fearful:


Full of reunion joy:




Yes that was unfortunately just irony. Well, in truth, she just seems incessantly ticked off by all the stupid people around her. 😂




Edit:
I forgot one: Galadriel happy and smiling 😉 :


Reminds me of an ex-girlfriend when she was mad at me.

Annatar said:

she just seems incessantly pissed off by all the stupid people around her. 😂

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I really like Morfydd Clark as an actress, she's extremely good. But this is an accurate summary of her performance in RoP so far.
Is it her? The writing? The director? Who knows?

Ealdwyn said:

Is it her? The writing? The director? Who knows?

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My guess: They want to show over five seasons her evolution into the Galadriel you know from the movies. At the start of the development, of course, she has to be the exact opposite. Indicative of my theory is this statement from the Vanityfair interview:

“. . .she’s got a sword that’s broken because she’s killed so many orcs,” McKay says of their version. “This young hot-headed Galadriel…how did she ever become that elder stateswoman?”

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There was also a development in the books, but it was quite different in terms of both time and character.