🧙Gandalf the strongest Maiar

Originally posted by Eriol
the Witch-King was, quite likely, a more dangerous foe at that moment than even the Balrog was.

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I don't think I agree with this. Sure the Witch-King (Which king? ) was a mighty warrior and sorcerer, but I don't think he can quite match up to a Maia. After all, the Balrog succeeded in slaying Gandalf - how much more 'dangerous' than that could the Witch-King have been?

and Sauron's 'powers' were 90% guile and trickery

Not so.

It wasn't guile & trickery that went into making the Ring Of Power the most powerful 'magical' force in Middle Earth for two Ages. It was most of Sauron's 'power'.

Eonwe must be high up the list.
Sauron too.
Melian, yes, but having the only girdle doesn't make her the most powerful. What happened when the Ringwraiths attempted to cross the Ford of Bruienen? Washed away in a flood.....
How about Treebeard's comment about the Orcs/evil forces being unable to enter Lothlorien "because of the great ones (Galadriel & Celeborn) here."?
So, magical ability to keep lesser evil being out of your 'territory' isn't some almighty power exclusive to Melian.

Curinur, he's up there too.

Gandalf the White, yeah, near the top too.

But, I'd go with Sauron & Eonwe at the very top.

Originally posted by ithrynluin
I don't think I agree with this. Sure the Witch-King (Which king? ) was a mighty warrior and sorcerer, but I don't think he can quite match up to a Maia. After all, the Balrog succeeded in slaying Gandalf - how much more 'dangerous' than that could the Witch-King have been?

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The key words from Eriol's quote were 'at the moment'. Yes, a Balrog would have provided great militaristic gains for Sauron, but the Valarauka would have been slain in time, but having already brought a significant number of deaths upon the Tirithrim.

I, however, was the Captain of Despair. The one thing the Rhohhirim and Gondorians had over the enemy was their pride and valour in battle. Which King could do most to take this away? the Witch King!

Think about it:
Everywhere that even a rumour of my coming went, friends and foes of the light would all go into despair and doubt they could ever survive in war. The morale of the Gondorians and Rhohirrim was far more important than vast numbers. Hope for a brighter tomarrow is what kept them going, and while a Balrog to some extent can take that hope away, it doesnt compare to the Witch King's.

So at the time given, I would have been more lethal than a Balrog. I'm not saying by how much because I can't judge, but it's my opinion that I blow any Balrog out of the water

The one thing the Rhohhirim and Gondorians had over the enemy was their pride and valour in battle.

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And how does that relate to the battle between Gandalf and the Witch-King? Clearly, both Gandalf and Shadowfax were 'immune' to the terror and despair that plagued the great majority of mortal men when the Nazgul were near.

The Silmarillion: The Valaquenta
For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of [color=sky blue]terror.[/color]

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The Lord of the Rings; The Bridge of Khazad-dum
Legolas turned and set an arrow to the string, though it was a long shot for his small bow. He drew, but his hand fell, and the arrow slipped to the ground. He gave a cry of dismay and fear. Two great trolls appeared; they bore great slabs of stone, and flung them down to serve as gangways over the fire. But it was not the trolls that had [color=sky blue]filled the Elf with terror.[/color] The ranks of the orcs had opened, and they crowded away, [color=sky blue]as if they themselves were afraid.[/color] Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and [color=sky blue]a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.[/color]

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The Balrog's chief weapon is terror. The chief weapon of the Nazgul is also terror. I daresay a Maia would wield greater terror than a mortal man, however enhanced with powers beyond his own kind he may be.

but the Valarauka would have been slain in time

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Why are you certain of this? The Balrog was slain by Gandalf, but Gandalf himself had perished. The Witch-King was slain by Eowyn and Merry, but they survived.

So at the time given, I would have been more lethal than a Balrog. I'm not saying by how much because I can't judge, but it's my opinion that I blow any Balrog out of the water

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I believe the Witch-King thought his time had come. To an extent, he was correct. He succeeded in breaking the gate of Minas Tirith and being the first foe ever to pass it. Yet his hope had cheated him in the end.

Originally posted by ithrynluin
The Balrog's chief weapon is terror. The chief weapon of the Nazgul is also terror. I daresay a Maia would wield greater terror than a mortal man, however enhanced with powers beyond his own kind he may be.

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This I definately agree with.
And in defense of the stance that a Valarauka (or rather the Balrog in the LotR) is stronger than the Witch-king, Gandalf, who was a Maia also, was killed by the Balrog; and he was the only one who was even able to confront it, and he perished.
But the Witch-king couldn't even kill of a Hobbit and a woman!!
Ok that's a bit harshly put but if he was so powerful and strong, why didn't he just kill Éowyn immediately? I see it as his overwhelming pride: the Witch-king was certainly greatly enhanced by Sauron's sorcery over him, but he was still a Man, with all of the flaws inherent to Men; and he had also been stripped of the one Gift of Men, death.

Ok, I'm probably back tracking here since I'm late to this conversation and I didn't read every post, but where is it stated that Gandalf and the other wizards are Maiar? There is this from 'Of the Rings of Power and The Third Age" of the Silmarillion:

"Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-Earth the Istari, whom Men called the Wizards. None knew at that time whence they were, save Cirdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and to Galadriel did he reveal that they came over the Sea. But afterwards it was said among the Elves that they were messengers sent by the Lord of the West to contest the power of Sauron if he should rise again, and to move Elves and Men and all living things of good will to valiant deeds.

So from that we know that they are from the West, but not that they are Maiar. Where is that statement made? In what book?

And the singular of Valaraukar is Valarauko.



Just showing off what knowledge I do have.

Ack, you're right breadfan, it is with an 'o'. How ambarrassing.

But as for the Istari = Maiar, 'Unfinished Tales' actually has the whole scene of the five Istari being gathered by the Valar and sent off to M-e.
Also, what else could they be? They were not Eruhíni or Dwarves, they were not Valar; and unlike Bombadil, they are in the forefront of the whole War of the Ring and their exploits are described in detail, leaving little doubt to which 'race' they belong to.

Lantarion said:

Also, what else could they be? They were not Eruhíni or Dwarves, they were not Valar; and unlike Bombadil, they are in the forefront of the whole War of the Ring and their exploits are described in detail, leaving little doubt to which 'race' they belong to.

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So it's never actually stated anywhere?

As Lantarion has said, Unfinished Tales says clearly who the Istari are.

from UT: Part 4: The Istari

Yet they were not so. For they came from over the Sea out of the Uttermost West; though this was for long known only to Círdan, Guardian of the Third Ring, master of the Grey Havens, who saw their landings upon the western shores. Emissaries they were from Lords of the West, the Valar, who still took counsel for the governance of Middle-earth, and when the shadow of Sauron began first to stir again took this means of resisting him. For with the consent of Eru they sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies of as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain; though because of their noble spirits they did not die, and aged only by the cares and labours of many long years. And this the Valar did, desiring to amend the errors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by their own might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good, and to seek to unite in love and understanding all those whom Sauron, should he come again, would endeavour to dominate and corrupt.

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There is more information in the Essay giving the Maia name of some of the Istari.

Thanks for the quote Gothmog.

Gothmog said:

There is more information in the Essay giving the Maia name of some of the Istari.

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Ooh yeah, I really enjoyed reading about Olórin's meaning and etymology. Brilliant linguistics.