• Welcome to The Tolkien Forum! Connect with fellow Tolkien enthusiasts and join a community that is over two decades old, and still going strong. We look forward to meeting you.  Register

🧙Gandalf vs the Balrog. A fair fight?

I personally think Gandalf would have won, or possibly end it in a double-KO.
Kind of like Rocky Balboa vs. Apollo Creed?

Adding to what Rúmil just said- 'Mighty' is kind of a nebulous concept. If you asked "Who is mightier at forging rings of power?", then I'd probably answer Sauron. If the question was "Who is mightier at reading large numbers of books while maintaining a high comprehension level afterwards?", then I'd say Gandalf. If you asked who would win in hand-to-hand combat, I'd say who knows, neither one of the two are combat specialists. However, at the end of the third age Gandalf had been out beating on Balrogs and Nazgûl, while Sauron had been sitting on his throne, so I'd say Gandalf was in better fighting shape (unless there was a gymn in Barad-dûr)!

Again, re. Elu's quotes, when Gandalf says 'Black is mightier still', this does not necessarily refer to Sauron alone, but perhaps to all the forces that were arrayed against the free peoples. It is also somewhat modest, as the victory of the free peoples over Sauron and his minions was due in no small part to the actions of Gandalf- Black was certainly more confident in it's strength, but it was overthrown by the 'white' all the same.
When Gandalf says that the Dark Lord is more dangerous than himself, this again is a strange concept to get a hold of. Gandalf might be very powerful in combat, but he is not likely to employ the sort of tactics which Sauron used in Numenor, for example. He could therefore admit to being 'less dangerous' without saying who would win in physical combat, which is what I believe this thread is about.
 
Elu Thingol,you shouldn't forget that Sauron became weaker with the years.After the destruction of Numenor he wasn't so beautiful like before and at the same time,just like Morgoth, he became weaker and weaker while he was developing himself as greater evil.
You shouldn't forget also that Gandalf wasn't allowed to use his power against Sauron and he never showed his real abilities.Even when the Maiar who had to go in ME were chosen he last the last one because he said he wasn't good enough to go there.I'll check in UT and write some more things about that.
 
I think "Black is mightier still" refers to the fact that Sauron has put his power into lordhsip and dominion, at the loss and dissipation of his personnal power: i.e. he was a powerful lord with a big army, but lost without his servants to back him - whiwh he made sure nerver happened anyway.
 
No,I definitely think that Sauron is stronger than Gandalf.I'm sure I read somewhere that Sauron is one of the mightiest of the maiar.
Someone said that Gandalf fought the Balrog and the Nazgul and that made him more powerful-well Gandalf spent the majority of his life in Valinor and he was mainly potent in wisdom,whereas Sauron spent almost all of his life in ME,in the service of Melkor at first and later being his own master,training himself,improving his skills,fighting Beren,Luthien,Huan,Finrod,Elendil,Gil-Galad,Celebrimbor.
Even with his full powers at his disposal,Gandalf still wouldn't be stronger than Sauron.
 
Sauron was the mighties of the Maiar in the service of Melkor; the mightiest Maia is Eönwë, then Imarë (see Valaquenta). Olórin (Gandalf) mas a Maia of Manwë; and I'm pretty sure Manwë sent his best Maia after Eönwë for such an errand upon Middle-Earth. Even if Sauron had been among the mightiest maia of Aulë before tuning evil, he would have been of equal dignity with Olórin; I reckon before the making of Arda they would have been of equal power, roughly; but whereas Sauron spent his power into his servants, making him weaker and weaker, Gandalf did not thus squander his power (a persistent theme in Tolkien's work; see in particular Simarillion end of chapter XI: and severally in HOME vol X, Morgoth's Ring.
And as for Sauron gaining experience from being thrashed by Húan the Hound of Lúthien, Isildur etc: well... no. Would you get better at bowing for being repeatedly beaten into the dust by Muhammad Ali? And as for gaining experience from his little victories, I would deem that factor negligable. On the contrary, the encounters in which he was defeated got him badly wounded (Húan), and seperated him from his Ring, in which he had placed all of his power. And when he did win (and slaying a terrified smith probably with only a working apron on is no great feat) it usually had the counterpart of making him revealy his wrath and inner malice, lessening his power of dissimulation and craftiness for the future. But the main thing you can't forget is the Ring: he put much of his power forth into it. With Sauron wearing the Ring, in single comabat, Gandalf would probably have the upper hand, though no doubt with great difficulty; Sauron relied on his servants to aid him. If Sauron was ringless, no question: he would have got a severe thrashing. What was to be feared were Sauron's armies: him innate potency was in them, not in himself any more. One can see it clearly in RotK, when his armies falter and halt when his will is turned from them.
 
It certainly isn't stated that Eönwë and Ilmarë are the greatest Maiar.


A powerful warrior-yes.Eönwe would surely be sent if Manwë's wish was to fight him physically.But he sent someone to oust Sauron with wisdom.

There is a saying : "What kills you not makes you stronger" and it can be applied to Sauron (and some others but that doesn't matter now) - I think he grew more cunning and powerful,for example when he came to Numenor - yes,his body was destroyed but he accomplished much and what he lost was worth it.
I think Sauron's main weapon in combat would be fear and not many individuals could withstand it,whether they are superb warriors or total pacifists.Gandalf himself says he was afraid of Sauron and too weak to fight him as a reason not to be sent to ME.
I disagree that Manwë sent "the next best thing" after Eönwë. Eönwë was a powerful warrior and Gandalf was a complete opposite - Gandalf was chosen because Manwë and Varda foresaw that he would emerge victorious in the end.Gandalf is the wisest of the Maiar,his wisdom is greater than Sauron's and that's how he finally beat him.His spirit was warm and eager and he moved the peoples of ME to great deeds.
I don't think Gandalf would beat Sauron even if Sauron was ringless,let
alone if he wore the ring-no way!
Gandalf put forth all his power when fighting the Balrog,his staff was rent asunder and I'm guessing fighting Sauron who is a much more powerful being than the Balrog,would be much much harder.
 
Last edited:
About the difference between wisdom and power: yes, you're right, it was by wisdom that Gandalf was to bent the poeple of ME into contest of Sauron's power. But he also has power, physical power: he carried a sword at his side, and used it. He moved people by wisdom, but widom didn't suffice: he needed authority, that is a reflection of his inner power. After his "enhancement", the power of his words cured Théoden, and he made Saruman come at call; those incidents are placed there to show how great his power had become. When he fought the Balrog, his was much weaker than as Gandalf the White. And the Balrog, physically, is a much stronger being than Sauron; to take a metaphor, Sauron lets his power seep into others, thus dominating them; but he has to spend his power to do so. Without his servants, on which he relies totally, he is useless. In a mental contest, the danger would not be Gandlaf losing: he was too "warm and eager" to lose. The danger would have been taking the place of Sauron afterwards. That was what Olórin was afraid of. And as for becoming stronger after facing near annihilation: I simply don't think Tolkien's mind worked that way. One of his objectives was to show how weak ands useless one becomes if one puts forth all one's "power" into domination of others.
 
Welcome to the forum Kavrangoz.

Read these threads and find out that the Istari indeed where Maiar. Or even better, see if you can get a copy of the Unfinished tales, which has a full chapter on Istari. But that book is quoted by several people in the following threads as well.

http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3900&highlight=Istari

http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3917&highlight=Istari

And even when Gandalf kicked him out of the White Council, Saruman remained what he was, an Istari. His spirit rose from the slain body and wished to return West, but he was refused.
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…