Glorfindel instead of Haldir?

Thorin, I think your custom user title should read "Arwen Basher" rather than "Purist to the End".

I somehow have this sneaky suspicion that Thorin's obsession with Arwen may have a slightly different reason than he claims...

Be honest, Thorin, how often have you re-wound the tape to watch Arwen catch Aragorn

Odo

Originally posted by aragil
Thorin, I think your custom user title should read "Arwen Basher" rather than "Purist to the End".

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Rightly changed.

From Odo
Be honest, Thorin, how often have you re-wound the tape to watch Arwen catch Aragorn

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Actually, I dislike Liv Tyler something fierce. She annoys me, she seems very airhead-y and she virtually knows squat about Tolkien. She doesn't seem to be aware that her "role" is pretty much non-existent on the Tolkien totem pole, yet acts like it's the best thing that ever happened to fantasy-dom.

Originally posted by Odo Proudfoot
Be honest, Thorin, how often have you re-wound the tape to watch Arwen catch Aragorn

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I take great care to have a finger on the fast-forward button immediately before that ridiculous event!

Originally posted by Thorin
Actually, I dislike Liv Tyler something fierce. She annoys me, she seems very airhead-y and she virtually knows squat about Tolkien. She doesn't seem to be aware that her "role" is pretty much non-existent on the Tolkien totem pole, yet acts like it's the best thing that ever happened to fantasy-dom.

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On the other hand, she is apparently one of the more naturally proficient speaker of Elvish (I assume Sindarin) on the planet. This helping? Didn't think so.

Originally posted by aragil
On the other hand, she is apparently one of the more naturally proficient speaker of Elvish (I assume Sindarin) on the planet. This helping? Didn't think so.

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Are you being sarcastic, aragil?
On the planet? Just how many people have attempted to speak it? And of them, how many were judged by someone who was qualified?

Aren't all the Sindarin vowels are pronounced the same as the Quenya? (correct me if it's wrong)She'd probably be good at both.

I guess that isn't important though. What is important as that her natural pronounciation of Sindarin isn't very important. How long would it take to teach an average person to say one line?
But most of all... how many would know if she got a couple vowels wrong? And of them, how many would care?
Why care that she pronounces the sound ee as eh or ih? because Tolkien didn't intend for that sound? What kind of arguement could that be considering that Tolkien didn't intend for her to be at Bruinen.

Is there any reason that natural pronounciation of Sindarin is worth more than next to nothing?

Next to nothing is in the eye of the beholder. Thorin said that she is annoying and doesn't know squat about Tolkien. I was pointing out that she can speak Elvish well, so she isn't completely worthless (not to mention that she probably looks like Arwen). Imagine the equivalent of Kevin Costner's accent in Robin Hood portrayed in Arwen's character. Many of us probably wouldn't care (or notice), but Tolkien does have a rather rabid following of language folk, and they would care.

Originally posted by aragil
Next to nothing is in the eye of the beholder. Thorin said that she is annoying and doesn't know squat about Tolkien. I was pointing out that she can speak Elvish well, so she isn't completely worthless (not to mention that she probably looks like Arwen). Imagine the equivalent of Kevin Costner's accent in Robin Hood portrayed in Arwen's character. Many of us probably wouldn't care (or notice), but Tolkien does have a rather rabid following of language folk, and they would care.

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She can pronounce elvish well, I'm not sure if I would say she can "speak" it well... to me that sounds like she actually knows Sindarin. Maybe she does... for all I know. I sort of somehow think that it would be widely known if she did. I also think she would know the books very well if she did. Maybe she does... I don't watch interviews.

I know that a lot of language people are into Tolkien's languages. I agree it is best to please Tolkien fans, and I even agree that they sould get the elvish pronounciations correct. I surely wouldn't notice if Sindarin were wrong, and probably not even the Quenya portions, but I would care if I found out that they were not correct, simply because the languages are of so much inportance as far as the books go.

But note that I said:

Is there any reason that natural pronounciation of Sindarin is worth more than next to nothing?

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I should have said, and this is what I ment:
Is there any reason that someone being quick to learn Sindarin, is of much worth?
That fact in it's self... how important is that when casting?

It wouldn't take much for your average person to learn to pronounce a few lines... would it? Just a little practice... yes?


I'd be very interested in knowing if Liv got the job before they knew she would pick up on it so quickly. I also wonder if any of the actors' with elvish lines were tested real quick on pronounciation ability before they were handed the job.

If that is one of the reasons they picked her, then fine. I can not argue about it.

But I'd also be interested (maybe Rumil can answer... I will PM him) in knowing how correct the pronounciation of Elrond, Aragorn, Galadriel, Legolas and whoever else spoke elvish are.

I do notice that Arwen speaks Elvish with a slightly posh accent. Logically, really, given the neighbourhood where she grew up

Odo

Originally posted by Nóm
But I'd also be interested (maybe Rumil can answer... I will PM him) in knowing how correct the pronounciation of Elrond, Aragorn, Galadriel, Legolas and whoever else spoke elvish are.

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Tar-Elenion, Cian, and jallan are also Tolkien language folk, I believe (though they are hard to reach by pm). Incidentally, how sure are we that Rumil is a him?

About Arwen, personally I think she's very beautiful and can act. I don't think she's as airheady as Thorin apparently does, but I don't think she's as grounded as Cate Blanchett either. I simply have no problem with Liv Tyler- but these are all personal and subjective matters. Her being able to pronounce (I also doubt she actually knows Elvish vocabulary/grammar- but she did say she loved it so maybe she pursued it) Elvish well is a fact. Whether it is a worthless fact or not is up to the reader of my post. In any case, I never pushed it too hard.

As far as being able to give the right accent (posh or otherwise), that isn't always easy, even with a dialect coach. I already pointed out Kevin Costner in Robin Hood. Last year Renee Zelweiger was applauded as doing a great job in Bridget Jones' diary, and these very boards are split on whether Sean Astin did a wonderful/atrocious accent with Sam. In any case, it is widely known that SA had a lot of trouble getting the accent, so I do think it is worth a little praise to be able to say that Liv can pronounce things well.

Originally posted by aragil
Tar-Elenion, Cian, and jallan are also Tolkien language folk, I believe (though they are hard to reach by pm). Incidentally, how sure are we that Rumil is a him?

About Arwen, personally I think she's very beautiful and can act. I don't think she's as airheady as Thorin apparently does, but I don't think she's as grounded as Cate Blanchett either. I simply have no problem with Liv Tyler- but these are all personal and subjective matters. Her being able to pronounce (I also doubt she actually knows Elvish vocabulary/grammar- but she did say she loved it so maybe she pursued it) Elvish well is a fact. Whether it is a worthless fact or not is up to the reader of my post. In any case, I never pushed it too hard.

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Doesn't this look like a "him" to you?


I know that Tar-Elenion and especially Cian would be great opinions to have, however, I am not comfortable PMing either of them.

PS: I don't know if you've read it elsewhere, but I'm sure you would remember if you did, since you seem not to forget anything, ever ... I do not like Liv as Arwen. Though I can not quite put my finger on the reason for it.

Some of the vowels are proncouned differently in Quenya and Sindarin.

The Elvish in the films is certainly good enough. Tolkien's own writing about some of the vowel sounds is not consistant.

Possibly he changed his mind on occasion.

In any case, Tolkien refers here and there to different accents and dialects among the Elves, naturally enough, so there is a lot amount of leeway for individual interpretations.

Tolkien's own recordings reciting and singing Namárië and reciting A Elbereth are not perfect either, mostly because Tolkien's own English accent sometimes interferes.

But Tolkien never claimed to be a native speaker.

Originally posted by jallan
Tolkien's own recordings reciting and singing Namárië and reciting A Elbereth are not perfect either, mostly because Tolkien's own English accent sometimes interferes.

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That is really funny- a true sign that your secondary creation has taken a life of it's own. I'm sure Aule and Niggle (and thus Tolkien) would be proud.

Back to the subject at hand

In the Books Glorfindel is an extremely powerful, and extremely active Elf. The fact that he is not chosen to accompany the Fellowship (either replacing Legolas or by increasing the Fellowship's size to 10) defies explanation.

What this statement betrays, IMO, is the (very understandable) desire to have the full power and wrath of an Elf-Lord somehow translated onto film. The question of the choice of Haldir over Glorfindel, in that context, is an obvious one: if the Elves (or at least Elrond) have decided to give the Last Alliance another chance, why not send the first-teamers. If Elrond has a bunch of Noldor princes lazing around Rivendell, why not send them out to wreak a little havoc? That would have made for some good fighting at HD. But maybe it is to come at Pellenor? Not likely...

My question is, does he have the authority to do get the Elf-Lords to do anything? He made be lord of Rivendell, but does he fact have dominion over its inhabitants. Elrond is not, himself, a First Born, is he? I've always thought of Rivendell as some kind of Elf refugee camp, with those of the Eldar who are still loath to leave ME finding one last chance to reside in there before getting on Cirdan's ships.

Another dimension to the original question, though, is what other scenarios the Lords of the West had before them at CoE, or what scenarios they never imagined? For the purposes of fun/argument, here are a couple:
- I read on some other thread a joking mention of some Elvish Special Forces detachment. What I had in mind was to have some latter born Elves (those not glowing in quite the way as the First Born do) steathily take the Ring to Mount Doom. The Elves seem just as resistant to the Ring's inducements as hobbits, but are infinitely more swift, strong, intelligent, and stealthy. Think of six or eight elves, led by Legolas perhaps, going right over Caradras (or whatever that mountain is) and right into Mordor.
- Another one that seems obvious to me when I see the clips of FoTR they are using on my cable/pay-per-view (with a shot of Gwaihir the Eagle gliding over the Misty Mountains) is this: call Gwaihir, or some of his kin, to Rivendell and ask him to fly to Mount Doom to drop the Ring in. We don't have much evidence of the Ring influencing animals, even those as advanced as the Eagles. And Gwaihir certainly knows the way to Mordor, since he plucks Sam and Frodo off Mount Doom. And he could be there in no time at all, before Sauron and the wraiths even knew it?

Seems to me the Lords of the West need some help in the planning department. They've got many options they arent' considering...

I don't know about any "prince" but maybe Elrond did send some of the Noldor to Helm's Deep. Some people, aragil to name one, think that these elves where from Rivendell because of their armour. It could very well be. I think PJ did a lousy job regarding the elves. The only thing I am waiting to see on the EE is explaination about the elves.

It is just too confusing. Maybe this is a case were having read the book causes more confusion. I will ask a couple people who watched the movie with me but have not read the book for their take on it.

If Glorfindel were to show up in RotK, it would be all the more reason that Thorin is right; in that Glorfindel ought to have been, but more importantly could have been, at Bruinen.

PJ probably wanted to make Haldir a pretty big character since he will die in TT.

To honor the Return of Thorin, King of Purists, what ancient thread should be fished from the deep?

aragil said:

In the Books Glorfindel is an extremely powerful, and extremely active Elf. The fact that he is not chosen to accompany the Fellowship (either replacing Legolas or by increasing the Fellowship's size to 10) defies explanation

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This is answered downthread; Frodo, on the verge of succumbing to his wound at the Fords, sees "a figure of white light" through the eyes of one 'on the other side', as Gandalf later puts it. Glorfindel as a kind of shining beacon to the forces of darkness is explained more fully in the drafts, but the text as it stands should be enough for a careful reader to grasp.

I have to add that a (ahem) competent director could convey this, both in this scene, and at the Council, which was turned into one of more unintentionally hilarious scenes in the movie.

The same with Arwen, a subject I've addressed before: again, a competent director could introduce book-Arwen in such a way as to make her stand out in the viewer's mind, at the time, and as a persistent memory, throughout the rest of the films, without all the derring-do.

Hey, Confusticated! I know you've been here recently -- did you ever get your questions about Non-shining Gandalf answered to your satisfaction? If not, "The Istari" makes it clear enough:

. . .their emissaries were forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by open display of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble...

Even Gandalf the White was able to "cloak" his light, when he wished.

Thorin said:

Actually, I dislike Liv Tyler something fierce. She annoys me, she seems very airhead-y and she virtually knows squat about Tolkien. She doesn't seem to be aware that her "role" is pretty much non-existent on the Tolkien totem pole, yet acts like it's the best thing that ever happened to fantasy-dom.

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Looks like Liv Tyler is back on the menu boys!

Good find on your mining expedition Squinty!

Halasían said:

Looks like Liv Tyler is back on the menu boys!

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I had no problem with Liv's casting.

Her character, on the other hand. . .


This was a fishing expedition, BTW. 😃

Squint-eyed Southerner said:

I had no problem with Liv's casting.

Her character, on the other hand. . .


This was a fishing expedition, BTW. 😃

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I did. Add to it a crappy screenplay for the character, and viola.