Glorfindel instead of Haldir?

[joxy]

Originally posted by aragil
....chasing off the Witch King and claiming to be able to ride against all nine come directly from tLotR.
Frodo has been told how evil the Ring is, but does not yet know that his own fire is incapable of melting it.

An appendix note says that the King went away when he saw G and his companions, rather than actually being chased away - though that might make G and the others more awesome, rather than less so!
G was one of several who were able to ride out from Rivendell in search of the Nine.
So, yes, those two points ARE in tLOTR, but only just!
To refresh our memories, why does G being "extremely powerful and active", which we are now agreed on, make it necessary to leave him out of the film?
The excerpt you quote about F's fire does make your point; I am afraid I had been beguiled by the film version of the scene into forgetting just how dramatic it "really" is! ("really" = "in the book"!)

 

[aragil]

Originally posted by joxy
and active", which we are now agreed on, make it necessary to leave him out of the film?

It's not absolutely necessary to leave him out. However, if you leave him in you have to come up with a reason why this very powerful, very active, already established Elf character does not join the fellowship. IMO, Tolkien did not provide a compelling reason. An interesting side note to this is that Glorfindel was the original Elf included in the Fellowship, during the first draftings of the scenario.

Originally posted by joxy
The excerpt you quote about F's fire does make your point; I am afraid I had been beguiled by the film version of the scene into forgetting just how dramatic it "really" is!

Then again, look at how much Mrs. Maggot is complaining that Frodo is too weak in TT, even without this scene being added. It's a hard movie to make, ain't it?

Nóm- very good points that you brought up re. Arwen vs Glofindel. Unfortunately I haven't had time to respond properly (still don't), but very nicely done.

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by aragil
It's not absolutely necessary to leave him out. However, if you leave him in you have to come up with a reason why this very powerful, very active, already established Elf character does not join the fellowship. IMO, Tolkien did not provide a compelling reason. An interesting side note to this is that Glorfindel was the original Elf included in the Fellowship, during the first draftings of the scenario.

No you don't. Tolkien-ites have already dealt with that from the book. Non-Tolkienites don't have a clue that Glorfindel was a high elf from the First Age and was brought back..yada yada yada. Do you think PJ would even bother to explain such a concept? Glorfindel would have been nothing more than a messenger of Elrond, another character like Haldir. The flood at the Ford's could have been done a number of ways and Arwen wouldn't have needed to be a part of it.

As far as the movie goes. There were a number of Elves at the council, as there were dwarves. What's so special with Gimli and Legolas that they went and none of the others? By having so many of each race at the council, your argument is invalid as to why Glorfindel (had been in the movie) would not be in the Fellowship. Their could have been high elves at PJ's council for all anyone would have known.

 

[aragil]

Naive movie goers don't have to know that Glorfindel is a high Elf, or any of that. His deeds at the ford are enough to show that he is very powerful and very active. As far as I can recall, Haldir never claimed to be able to oppose the nine. As Nom points out, this then makes the exclusion of Arwen from the Fellowship rather problematic, but there is always the very poor excuse of cheuvanism.
As for me, I have had the books, and I have not 'dealt with that'. I think it was silly not to send the best Elf for the job, and Glorfindel was the better Elf.

 

[Confusticated]

As Nom points out, this then makes the exclusion of Arwen from the Fellowship rather problematic, but there is always the very poor excuse of cheuvanism.

I don't think it is all that problematic, my point was more that Glorfindel would be no more problematic.
But as long as PJ' is inventing things, why not offer an invented excuse for Glorfindel not joining the fellowship?
He has to see some people safely to the Grey Havens or something. I know some people wouldn't buy that kind of thing about the books, but imagine how much it would mean if Elrond or Gandalf actually said that Glorfindel was needed elsewhere.

aragil, how does a rehoused elf differ from your average calaquendi who has never died? I've asked a couple people who've read all of HoMe and one said there is no difference and the other didn't answer.
Why exactly is Glorfindel considered so much more capable than the other great elf lords from accross the sea. It couldn't be simply that he took down a balrog, or so it seems to me. I know it is not an easy task, kiliing a balrog, but I get the impression that a lot of other warriors of the first age would have had just as much chance if they had been in Glorfindel's position. For example - what Ecthelion did while wounded even.

It is said in The Silmarillion that orcs fled before Maedhros since after his torture on the cliff side his spirit burned like a white fire, and that he was as one who returns from the dead.
How exactly is one who returns from the dead? Nothing I've read on the subject says anything about a spirit being different in any way after it is rehoused.
What about the other elf lords of Rivendell? Who is this Erestor for example? Didn't some of these male Noldor in Rivendell fight great battles in the first age when elves were mighty.
I'm just saying that it seems to me that if we ask why not Glorfindel, we should ask why not other great elves too.

Another qeustion, Gandalf would show up as a bright white figure in the wraith world too, wouldn't he? It seems to me that he would, but I'm just making sure because I offered the reason that Glorfindel shouldn't have been in the fellowship because he would be very visible to the nazgul, as a white figure in a world of shadow. I have no idea why no one has contradicted me with the fact that Gandalf would too.

Originally posted by Kiroshar

Originally posted by Nóm
It doesn't matter that we can figure about Arwen's power based on what we've read in all the books, only what happens in the movie will exlain what happens in the movie to the average viewer.
How does a movie viewer know how Arwen is making that flood? Other "magic words" we see are used by Wizards.
Ulmo is never mentioned in the Lord of the Rings.
The point is: To the average viewer... wouldn't Arwen look powerful and useful in battle?

Arwen did not use "magic words" to make the flood; she asked the river spirits to help them. This is explained in the EE commentary by the writers.

Which is why I put "magic words" in quotes.
Define magic anyhow.

Originally posted by Kiroshar
Of course, the average movie viewer wouldn't know it, so your point is valid.

Thank you for pointing that out!

 

[aragil]

Originally posted by Nóm
aragil, how does a rehoused elf differ from your average calaquendi who has never died? I've asked a couple people who've read all of HoMe and one said there is no difference and the other didn't answer.

I haven't actually read all of HoME, but I've read most of Morgoth's Ring, which is where these things are addressed. Hmm. I'm not sure there would be a huge difference. One very slight difference (at Glorfindel's age) is that Elven bodies aren't 100% devoid of decay- they do slowly age over time, so a rehoused Elf would have a fresher/stronger body. But IMO this would manifest itself very subtly- I would certainly not rate a rehoused Elf as being considerably more or less powerful than your average Joe-schmoe.

Originally posted by Nóm
Why exactly is Glorfindel considered so much more capable than the other great elf lords from accross the sea. It couldn't be simply that he took down a balrog, or so it seems to me. I know it is not an easy task, kiliing a balrog, but I get the impression that a lot of other warriors of the first age would have had just as much chance if they had been in Glorfindel's position. For example - what Ecthelion did while wounded even.
It is said in The Silmarillion that orcs fled before Maedhros since after his torture on the cliff side his spirit burned like a white fire, and that he was as one who returns from the dead.
How exactly is one who returns from the dead? Nothing I've read on the subject says anything about a spirit being different in any way after it is rehoused.
What about the other elf lords of Rivendell? Who is this Erestor for example? Didn't some of these male Noldor in Rivendell fight great battles in the first age when elves were mighty.
I'm just saying that it seems to me that if we ask why not Glorfindel, we should ask why not other great elves too.

One reason Glorfindel is so impressive in the third age is because all the other Elves such as Ecthelion and Maedhros are gone. Among what is left Glorfindel is the most powerful Elf we know about.
A second reason is because the Valar have reversed their own judgement in allowing Glorfindel to return to Middle-earth. This can not be overlooked- the only other creature that got similar treatment was Luthien, and she was half Maia! Earendil was never allowed to set foot on mortal lands after he reached Valinor. All the Middle-earth Elves who sailed to Tol Eressea were neither allowed to go to Valinor proper or return to Middle-earth. Most of the Noldor who were slain while still under the ban were kept for a long while in the Halls of Mandos. Glorfindel, however, was an exception to all this. He only spent a relatively short time in the halls of Mandos, and then he was sent back to Middle-earth to help oppose Sauron- the only Elf allowed to do this. Presumably he was sent back because he was the best Elf for the job, a policy which Elrond would have been wise to follow (IMO).
The reason I ask why not Glorfindel, instead of worrying about the other Elves, is because we know so much about Glorfindel. Glorfindel really was that powerful. Erestor may or may not have been- If he was, the Tolkien never bothered to mention it. I'm not going to get too upset over a speculatively powerful elf being left out of the Fellowship. Glorfindel, however, was not only powerful, but was also sent from Valinor to help in the struggle against Sauron. The fact that he didn't do more when it counted is what irks me.

Originally posted by Nóm
This is were the fact that you and I view the movie so differently comes in... it seems to me that you identify it with the book more than I do. You present book (even from old drafts) reasons for PJ's actions. I don't delve deep enough into the film to bother looking for these excuses, so for me... it doesn't matter if PJ forms the fellowship in a way that Tolkien once did.

I think I wasn't very clear here. Tolkien never had a draft where the Fellowship members (besides Sam and Gandalf) volunteered to go- they were always appointed by Elrond. My point was that I think the Selection by Elrond in the final version is simply a holdover from the earlier drafts. In the later passages of LotR, Tolkien continually re-wrote passages to emphasize the importance of personal choice. My feeling is, that had Tolkien written the CoE during the later periods, then the fellowship members would have volunteered, rather than being selected. This is purely speculative on my part.

 

[Confusticated]

I agree that a renewed body would not make that much difference.
I'm thinking that Glorfindel's second body was probably older at the time of the war of the ring than his first was during the fall of Gondolin. So the younger body aspect (though we agree this wouldn't matter much) is not relevant at all.

I guess I understand why people make a big deal of Glorfindel not having a bigger part - though keep in mind how many times the Valar screwed up.
I've read less than Half of Morgoth's Ring... about rebirth vs rehousing, and Glorfindel is mentioned but it doesn't have much information (that I have found or recall) about why exactly Glorfindel was sent back.
If the reasons for Glorfindel being sent back to Middle-earth are why so many people are questioning why not Glorfindel in the fellowship, then I am satisfied with that answer.

I know that most of the great elves are gone... well obviously the best of them (princes of the Noldor) died long ago but I think some other great ones remained in Rivendell for the simple reason that any male Noldor exile would surely have fought in the great battles and have survived it all... that is to not to say that they went up against Balrogs... but they were just greater than the dark elves.


But since I'm satisfied with your answer about the Glorfindel emphasis this doesn't matter.

PS: I get the impression that Finrod spent a very short amount of time in the halls of Mandos too... but I don't think there is proof... just impressions left by the wording.

 

[lilhobo]

i dont think tolkien would have liked his Age old hero to die in the rat hole that was Helm's Deep...what are u thinking thorin

 

[jallan]

From The Treason of Isengard (HoME 7), “The Ring Goes South”, Christopher Tolkien writes about an early draft of his father’s:

And after saying that for two unfilled places needed to make nine he may be able to find some ‘of my own kindred and household’ Elrond continues (but the passage was at once deleted): ‘The elf-lords I may not send, for though their power is great it is not great enough. They cannot walk unhidden from wrath and spirit of evil, and news of the Company would reach Mordor by day or night.’

This would explain why Glorfindel was not enrolled among the Fellowship.

That Tolkien deleted the passage does not necessarily mean its reasoning is invalid. Tolkien might have intended to instead insert this reasoning elsewhere, but neglected to do so.

The explanation well fits with the white light that Frodo sees shining from Glorfindel with his Ring-enhanced vision, as he himself almost enters the wraith-world for ever.

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by jallan

The explanation well fits with the white light that Frodo sees shining from Glorfindel with his Ring-enhanced vision, as he himself almost enters the wraith-world for ever.

Thanks jallan. That is what I thought, up until I decided to try to argue against myself and right away concluded that Gandalf should be just as visible in the wraith world. Do you know if he would have been?
If not, then I will be glad, because I did view this is as the best, and suffcient reason for why Glorfindel was not sent.
I actually came up with this as a result of trying to prove that Gildor Inglorion was right in not sending an elf along with the hobbits.

 

[jallan]

I would guess that a wizard might be able to shroud himself in ways that an "elf-lord" might not.

On the other hand, it might be that consideration of Gandalf's power in both worlds might be why Tolkien removed the explanation in respect to the elf-lords.

All that we know is that the Tolkien's deleted explanation shows that Tolkien did see the problem.

 

[aragil]

He did more than just see the problem! For several drafts Tolkien had Glorfindel representing the Elves in the Company. See The Return of the Shadow (HoME 6), "In the House of Elrond", pages 397 and 406 for drafts that included Glorfindel, and p. 408 for the first draft that did not (the draft on p. 408 doesn't include a Dwarf either, so the number of the Fellowship was just 7).

 

[Confusticated]

I am starting to think that Gandalf the Grey would not have shown as a white figure in the wraith world.

Who among the elves knew that Gandalf was a Maia, or even that he had come from Aman? Did all of the high elves know?

I don't know where to find this information and I don't recall it if I ever read. Someone once said in a post that only a few elves knew what Gandalf was, Cirdan was one of them. But it seems to me, that the elves should have guessed Gandalf's nature since they would have known how long his life was lasting. If it is true that only a few elves knew Gandalf's nature, then I think it could be that he was veiled (either by his own choice, or by the Valar) otherwise any of the high elves would have saw him on the other side and known he was from Aman.

But more importantly, there was also a shimmer about the feet of the high elves in the Shire, and there is mention in The Silmarillion about the light in the face of Orome, and even Melian the Maia and of "the faces that had beheld the light", but never a mention of this kind of thing with Gandalf the Grey.

Anyone? aragil? jallan? Does it seem strange to you that there was never anything said about the appearance of Gandalf the Grey that shows that he had the light of Aman?
Or, is there something that I have forgot about?

 

[jallan]

I know nothing that indicates which Elves might have been aware of what Gandalf was and which would not have been so aware.

That Gandalf was a Maia might even have been common knowledge among Elves who knew him or knew of him. The essay on the Istari only says:

Among Men they were supposed (at first) by those who had dealings with them to be Men who had acquired lore and arts by long and secret study.

Treebeard knows nothing for sure:

'Saruman is a Wizard,' answered Treebeard. 'More than that I cannot say. I do not know the history of Wizards. They appeared first after the Great Ships came over the Sea; but if they came with the Ships I never can tell.

I can recall no mentions of light shining through the form of Gandalf the Grey.

 

[aragil]

Uh, Jallan, I think you might have skimmed the first paragraph of the Essay on the Istari in UT:

Wizard is a translation of Quenya istar (Sindarin ithron): one of the members of an "order" (as they call it), claiming to possess, and exhibiting, eminent knowledge of the history and nature the World. The translation (through suitable in its relation to "wise" and other ancient words of knowing, similar to that of istar in Quenya) is not perhaps happy, since Heren Istarion or "Order of Wizards" was quite distinct from "wizards" and "magicians" of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed, and none save maybe Elrond, Círdan and Galadriel discovered of what kind they were or whence they came.

ps Jallan, check your private messages. I have a language question in the book forum and have been told that you'd be a good guy/gal to ask.

 

[Confusticated]

Thanks for providing that. I've only read the Tuor part of UT

Well... I find that darn hard to buy. Does anyone else?
The high elves would have known well about Maiar, and I figure that such wise people might get the bright idea that these powerful, wise, seemingly immortal (despite the appearance of old age) beings, could be Maiar? Once that thought enters someone's mind, they'd only be able to find things to confirm the idea. The elves of Rivendell would have known about Glorfindel coming back, so it's not too much of a stretch for them to consider that maybe others were sent from Aman too?

If only the keepers of the 3 rings found out what kind the Istari were or from where they came, then I assume that Olorin became Gandalf in such a way that he did not show up as a white light in the wraith world.

So, I go back to my first reason for why Glorfindel wasn't in the fellowship, and why it is good that Gildor sent no elf with the hobbits - they were bright lights in a world of shadow. Gandalf could go in secrecy because he was most likely not.

aragil, what is wrong with my reasoning? Since you know no sufficient reason for Glorfindel not being in the fellowship, I assume you can see my errors.

 

[aragil]

Your reasoning is fine, but it is based on personal interpretation. If your view of Middle Earth is that the powerful Elf Lords walked around like a bug light for evil, then the natural assumption is that they would have been unsuitable for the Fellowship. However, this is not the reason Gandalf gives in the published fellowship for excluding Glorfindel. Elrond says "There remain two more to be found,' said Elrond. "These I will consider. Of my household I may find some that it seems good to me to send." This leaves open the possibility that Elf Lords don't gleam, as it is possible that one of Elrond's household is an Elf Lord and we agree he wouldn't send one along if they gleamed. Gandalf's words against Glorfindel run "Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him." Again this does not preclude the Elves shining in the dark, but if they did shine in the dark this would have been an obvious opportunity for Gandalf to point it out.

Hmm. While I'm looking up quotes, it might be pertinent to post some of the 'glowing' bits for future reflection:

From Three is Company
The hobbits sat in shadow by the wayside. Before long the Elves came down the lane towards the valley. They passed slowly, and the hobbits could see the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes. They bore no lights, yet as they walked a shimmer, like the light of the moon above the rim of the hills before it rises, seemed to fall about their feet. They were now silent, and as the last Elf passed he turned and looked towards the hobbits and laughed.

From Flight to the Ford
The light faded, and the leaves on the bushes rustled softly. Clearer and nearer now the bells jingled, and clippety-clip came the quick trotting feet. Suddenly into view below came a white horse, gleaming in the shadows, running swiftly. In the dusk its headstall flickered and flashed, as if it were studded with gems like living stars. The rider's cloak streamed behind him, and his hood was thrown back; his golden hair flowed shimmering in the wind of his speed. To Frodo it appeared that a white light was shining through the form and raiment of the rider, as if through a thin veil.
...
With his last failing senses Frodo heard cries, and it seemed to him that he saw, beyond the Riders that hesitated on the shore, a shining figure of white light; and behind it ran small shadowy forms waving flames, that flared red in the grey mist that was falling over the world.

From Many Meetings
`Yes, at present, until all else is conquered. The Elves may fear the Dark Lord, and they may fly before him, but never again will they listen to him or serve him. And here in Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.'
'I thought that I saw a white figure that shone and did not grow dim like the others. Was that Glorfindel then?'
'Yes, you saw him for a moment as he is upon the other side: one of the mighty of the Firstborn. He is an Elf-lord of a house of princes. Indeed there is a power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while: and elsewhere other powers still dwell.

Two of these three episodes of glowing were extant in the first drafting:

From HoME 6, chapter II
The hobbits sat in shadow by the roadside. Before long the Elves came down the road towards the valley. They passed slowly and the hobbits could see the starlight glimmering on their hair and in their eyes.(16) They bore no lights, yet as they walked a shimmer, like the light of the moon above the rim of the hills before it rises, seemed to fall about their feet. They had stopped singing, and as the-last elf passed he turned and looked towards the hobbits, and laughed.

From HoME 6, chapter XI
The sentence in FR (p. 221) 'To Frodo it appeared that a white light was shining through the form and raiment of the rider, as if through a thin veil' is absent.
...With his last failing sense Bingo heard cries, and it seemed to him that behind the Riders there appeared suddenly one shining white figure followed by other smaller and more shadowy figures waving flames. Redly they flamed in the white mist that was over all.

 

[Confusticated]

Well, I have no doubt about the high elves being super visible to the wraiths.
It happens that I am familiar with these quotes and already have answers.

Elrond says "There remain two more to be found,' said Elrond. "These I will consider. Of my household I may find some that it seems good to me to send." This leaves open the possibility that Elf Lords don't gleam, as it is possible that one of Elrond's household is an Elf Lord and we agree he wouldn't send one along if they gleamed.

It isn't just possible, it is fact that some of Elrond's household are Elf Lords. What is the definition of Elf Lord by the way?
Anyhow... I don't see how this leaves open a chance for non-gleaming Elf Lords (or high elves). It doesn't follow because he may have been thinking to send some of his household that were not calaquendi.

Gandalf's words against Glorfindel run "Even if you chose for us an elf-lord, such as Glorfindel, he could not storm the Dark Tower, nor open the road to the Fire by the power that is in him." Again this does not preclude the Elves shining in the dark, but if they did shine in the dark this would have been an obvious opportunity for Gandalf to point it out.

It could have been so obvious that he need not have pointed it out. Glorfindel may have just been the best example of how a great warrior wouldn't make much difference in this stealthy quest.
He said "even if you chose..." as though they both knew this was a "what if" type of thing. Okay.... now I am pushing it

 

[Éomond]

Glorfindel might have been a better fit than Haldir, but I bet alot of people would have gotten mad to see Glorfindel die at Helm's Deep rather then the Balrog fight.

 

[Thorin]

Originally posted by Éomond
Glorfindel might have been a better fit than Haldir, but I bet alot of people would have gotten mad to see Glorfindel die at Helm's Deep rather then the Balrog fight.

Actually, considering that PJ wouldn't have taken any of the book Glorfindel into consideration (why would he? It wouldn't have made any sense to explain his background) and considering the fact that Elves at Helm's Deep was a total fabrication, why get mad? Movie Haldir was not the Haldir of the books, so there was nothing to compare it to.

The only advantage of Glorfindel would be to keep Arwen out of the Fords. Any other use for him later would be secondary for me.