Glorfindel or Ecthelion - who is a greater 🧝elf?

[Ithrynluin]

I think you've seen me use it! Give me points too!!

I can vouch for that. Cough up the points, Turgon! :*D

 

[Confusticated]

Ivan's got my back... as usual!

Lets swing this back around to the topic... I got an idea. Maybe what it really comes down to is presentation. I mean.... you're in the wilderness being hunted by an unstoppable enemy and a freakin High Elf comes riding up on a horse... somewhat heals you, and then the horse saves your life... along with Glorfy and them holding off the wraiths.... illumitation in the wraith world... Hard not to like that! If I was a man Glorfindel would make me gay (if i wasn't already!!).

Don't you like it how in action movies this impossably capable guy or girl just shows up and takes names.... Glorfindel is the that guy of LoTR. And it makes you feel good and pumped up because maybe you're sort of vicariously being that badass guy! Or am I alone in engaging in heroic "protector" fantasies?

But Ecthelion... no less capable than Glorfindel I don't think. He just didn't get presented as the most capable ass-kicker in the whole of Middle-earth, as the other Noldor around at that point were awesome too!:*p

 

[Ecthelion74]

Ecthelion. Gothmog was the Lord of Balrogs and the High-captain of Angband, one of the chief servants of the Dark Lord Morgoth with a rank equal to that of Sauron.

Good infos with latest sources are here:
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Ecthelion

"In the battle over Gondolin, Ecthelion and his forces made their entrance from the South part of the city, after previously being held in reserve. So terrible was his voice when commanding the drawing of the swords and the killings which followed, that his name became a terror among the enemy and a Warcry to the Eldar. Valiantly fighting side by side with Tuor and his House of the Wing, they drove away the orcs until almost the Gate was regained. As Dragons reinforced Morgoth's army, Ecthelion killed three Balrogs and his sword did "hurt to their fire". Outnumbered, they had to retreat. When doing so, Ecthelion's left arm was wounded and his shield fell to earth. Tuor carried him away as they joined the remaining leaders in the Square of the King.

In that place the great Fountain of the King stood and Ecthelion regained his strength by drinking from it. As seven dragons lead the enemy's forces towards the Square, the remaining army of Gondolin began retreat. All but Ecthelion, who remained near the fountain in a stand which was remembered as the most valiant "in all the songs or in any tale". It was there that he faced Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs."

Thats my opinion.

 

[Phuc Do]

In my memory I remembered Glorfindel better. LOL, I had to read up on Ecthelion to post on this. I really can't put my finger on who of them were more powerful. Clearly Glorfindel is closer to my heart since I got to know him first through The Fellowship of the Ring.

 

[Ron Simpson]

"Greater" in terms of what? The question is fuzzy, so any answer can't be clear....
1. Nobility: they were both of noble blood and great lineage, and both considered great lords of their houses in Gondolin (equal)
2. Leadership: Turgon appointed both of them as co-captains of his host (equal)
3. Importance & Social Status: Ecthelion was lord of the fountain in the square of the King (Ecthy wins this one)
4. Best for Last: Turgon held back Ecthelion & his fighting forces as a last reserve in the defence of the city of Gondolin: you always save your best for last (Ecthy wins this one)
5. Fighting Prowess: Ecthelion slew 3 balrogs during the fall of Gondolin / Glorfindel only 1 (Ecthy wins this one)
"By reason of the great doughtiness of those two lords [Tuor and Ecthelion] came even unto the Balrogs. Of those demons of power Ecthelion slew three, for the brightness of his sword cleft the iron of them and did hurt to their fire, and they writhed" / BoLT, Fall of Gondolin
6. More Fighting Prowess: In the fall of Gondolin, Ecthelion slew 3 Orc field-captains, two of which he killed with one sweep of his sword! Holy Crap! "but Ecthelion shore through two captains of the goblins at a sweep and cleft the head of Orcobal their chiefest champion to his teeth; / BoLT, Fall of Gondolin (Ecthy wins this one again)
7. Even More Fighting Prowess: as has been mentioned above, Ecthelion then kills Gothmog with one hand tied behind his back..as it were (his shield arm was broken when he faced down the Lord of Balrogs) (Ecthy wins yet again)
8. Cahoneys & Courage: both were extraordinarily valiant facing down foes when the odds were against them with little to no regard for their own personal safety. Recall that Ecthelion engaged Gothmog while coming to the defence of Tuor who was overcome by fumes and about to be dispatched after being beaten down by the Balrog. And of course we all know that Glorfindel's response to the Balrog's attack was so immediate that he was fully engaged in combat before his men could even come to his aid. Neither of them was an elf you'd want to mess with .... (equal)

But truth be told, Tolkien tells us more 1st Age stories about Ecthelion than he does about Glorfindel. So we might be short-changing Glorfindel because his narrative is so thin. Also he doesn't say much about the character of either elf when not on the battle-field - and when he does, its mostly about Ecthelion.

Not sure if it is worth talking about 're-born Glorfindel'. Fighting the minions of Sauron does not compare with fighting the minions of Morgoth. Yeah, yeah - I know that 're-born Glorfindel' scared the cloak off the Witch-King (who fled for his life like a little wuss) but a mortal sorcerer certainly ain't no Balrog (so not even worth talking about). Also, being a counsellor in the house of Elrond in no way compares with being a heavy-hitter of Gondolin. So, in my opinion, 're-born Glorfindel's' exploits count for very little within the context of this discussion.....

So my conclusion is this: Given we are talking about 1st Age Glorfindel vs. Ecthelion, as 'civilian elves', they were were pretty equal, but on the battlefield, Ecthelion wins hands down !

This is an old thread that I just found....but I must say that Glorfindel is better (surprise surprise right?). Anyway...I say it because Glorfindel actually meant to kill his balrog, Ecthelion just got his spiked head stuck in THE balrog and they both ended up drowning...and the whole city fell anyway, so what good was that? Glorfindel, on the other hand, slew a balrog that allowed the refugees to get away (Turin Turambar and Elwing included, 2 of the most important figures in the Sil). Also, Glorfindel rescued/protected Frodo from the Black Riders at the ford. What more do you need? So there you have it, Glorfindel is the best!

Well, in life you can only play the hand you are dealt, and play the cards in front of you. The issue is how well you play the cards you get. Ecthelion certainly meant to kill him and that is what the spike was for. Moreover, he certainly would have engaged that Balrog on the high pass if fate had dealt him that hand, but it didn't. (Also Ecthelion slew 3 Balrogs during that battle / go back and read BoLT, Fall of Gondolin !

 

[WarriorEstel]

I think it is Ecthelion because he killed the "Balrog-King" Gothmog... Glorfindel just killed a balrog to save the refugees from death. And because of that he was reincarnated??? But well, i think Ecthelion should have been sent back to life, too...

 

[Miguel]

HoME 12; Last Writings

Near equality with the Maia is no mean feat. Thius it is probable that after re-incarnation Glorfindel was the more powerful Elf.

Yes but Glorfindel's fight is like the tragic/sacrifice/sad one while Ecthelion's is on a brutal 'at the alamo setting with lots of scary F.A. Orcs overwhelming everything, and then you don't see this character no more. Of the fountain's is in my opinion the most bad ass duel.
It's also scary to think about those Orcs pushing Turgon's forces up some spiral staircase in his tower. Also, i find the wingless dragons to be creepier than the others.

 

[ZehnWaters]

What a pointless exercise. They are both heroes. Ecthelion lived and returned to the Undying Lands. Glorfindel perished but was sent from the Halls of Mandos to aid Elrond against the Foe.
Hail them both.

Ecthelion drowned in the fountain with Gothmog.

Glorfindel killed a Balrog but also returned to ME during the Second Age and, presumably, participated in all of the events there since. We know of his prophecy about the Witch-King.

 

[Amarthon]

My mistake. You are correct.

 

[Annatar Lord Of Gifts]

Ecthelion. Didn't he slay 3 Balrogs during the Fall Of Gondolin? I swear it says so in the Silmarillion...

 

[Elthir]

Not in the published [constructed] Silmarillion, Annatar Lord of Gifts. And Balrogs from The Book of Lost Tales [very early text] have been characterized as: "The early conception of Balrogs makes them less terrible, and certainly more destructible, than they afterwards became: . . ." The Book of Lost Tales, The Fall of Gondolin, Commentary, Christopher Tolkien

And sadly, the updated, long prose Fall of Gondolin [early 1950s] was abandoned before any balrogs appear. Then we have Tolkien's note that possibly only three Balrogs, or at most seven, ever existed, which throws another consideration into the mix -- despite that JRRT himself never revised every mention of "many" Balrogs in his own texts [for whatever reason].

Christopher Tolkien edited out explicit references to many Balrogs for his constructed Silmarillion, leaving the numbers vague enough.

 

[CheriptheRipper]

I think there was a reason that HE of all Elves was sent back to Middle Earth, to aid Elrond and Gandalf. That speaks of his greatness.

Granted I don't know Ecthelion, so I'd like to say this makes him the greatest as well but at what point would we stop using this as an argument?
Would we say, for instance he's a greater elf than Faenor because he didn't get sent back either 🤨
(Faenor sent back to where he died in this case)

 

[Gloranthan]

Didn't the Witch-King see Glorfindel on a city wall and run home screaming like a scared child? That is such a cool scene I have had to vote for Glorfindel. Ecthelion is cool, though.

Feanor is my favorite Elf, and Eol after him. Fingolfin edges out Glorfindel, because anyone who will bang on the gates of Hell and say, "Alright Satan, let's do this!" has Mithril stones. Glorfindel also has a great name.

 

[Ent]

Witch-King see Glorfindel on a city wall and run home screaming like a scared child?

Not sure where this scene would be found, but the Witch King and all nine riders fled into the river and got swept away by it, when Glorfindal, 'revealed in his wrath', came at them (with Aragorn) as Frodo made his escape into Rivendell.

All of them combined had no desire to face him. (That said, the other 8 without the King seem pretty much like ineffective wusses to me. (Assuming 'wusses' is a word.)

 

[Tar-Elenion]

Perhaps mis-remembering this incident at the Battle of Fornost:
"Then the Witch-king laughed, and none that heard it ever forgot the horror of that cry. But Glorfindel rode up then on his white horse, and in the midst of his laughter the Witch-king turned to flight and passed into the shadows. For night came down on the battlefield, and he was lost, and none saw whither he went."
LotR, App. A

 

[ZehnWaters]

Granted I don't know Ecthelion, so I'd like to say this makes him the greatest as well but at what point would we stop using this as an argument?
Would we say, for instance he's a greater elf than Faenor because he didn't get sent back either 🤨
(Faenor sent back to where he died in this case)

Morally. Though being morally greater than Fëanor isn't exactly an achievement.

And sadly, the updated, long prose Fall of Gondolin [early 1950s] was abandoned before any balrogs appear. Then we have Tolkien's note that possibly only three Balrogs, or at most seven,

I'm very glad these never got complete integrated. The idea of only 3 Balrogs is depressing. The number of Maiar was never massive but I never conceived of it as being THAT small. That makes, what?, 4 Maiar in Melkor's service? 7 is more acceptable but I still prefer somewhere in the teens.

 

[Gloranthan]

, 4 Maiar in Melkor's service? 7 is more acceptable but I still prefer somewhere in the teens.

Although JRR only gives a few examples I always thought of Maia of having a huge number. But most of them would be busy doing invisible things. Angels don't seem to be a tiny group by most reckonings.

 

[Sihtric]

I find both of their characters pretty interesting, but Glorfindel did get reborn, was that a testament to his prowess and achievements? But I have also seen other people asking (in person and whatnot) why Ecthelion did not get reborn... Glorfindel-after his rebirth- goes on to continue his deeds (like saving Frodo in the 3rd Age) so was there perhaps a purpose/direction for his rebirth? Haha, I have many questions, I guess.

 

[Ent]

always thought of Maia of having a huge number.

Melkor did have many Maiar in his service.

"For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror. Tolkien, J.R.R.. The Silmarillion (p. 23). HarperCollins. Kindle Edition.

The Balrogs were just a few of the Maiar he deceived and drew.

 

[Ent]

many were drawn to his splendour

corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts

Interestingly it would seem from the above that Melkor did not corrupt the Maiar by 'superior power' (force).
They were either corrupted by their own choice... "being drawn by his splendor".... or by lies and deceit.

So "power" (in terms of 'force') has little or nothing to do with corruption at any turn.